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santa100
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by santa100 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:11 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:...the question is: “Is it desirable?
I used to think it was an excellent idea. But then there's a strange imaginary story that came to my mind: there was a democratic egalitarianistic society, a country where women enjoy the same rights as men, and all other good stuff... except... most of the people are cannibals. A group of innocent 5th BC time travelers during their space-time tour got stuck in 21st AD Democratic of Cannibals when their time machine broke down. There was ongoing discusions on DoC's online forums about what to do with those tourists. Obviously everyone got vote and reputation, being a good democracy as it is. As a result, a wise man got the highest "reputation" for advocating the idea of making a huge free feast for everyone, all cost and expenses "paid" for by the tourists. At the same time there was a poor idiot who opposed the idea. While the story didn't reveal anything after that, we could imagine the poor guy didn't get a very good "reputation" and what's more, he might already "paid" the cost for that huge dinner along with those poor tourists he tried to protect...

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Mr Man
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by Mr Man » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:15 am

santa100 wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:...the question is: “Is it desirable?
I used to think it was an excellent idea. But then there's a strange imaginary story that came to my mind: there was a democratic egalitarianistic society, a country where women enjoy the same rights as men, and all other good stuff... except... most of the people are cannibals. A group of innocent 5th BC time travelers during their space-time tour got stuck in 21st AD Democratic of Cannibals when their time machine broke down. There was ongoing discusions on DoC's online forums about what to do with those tourists. Obviously everyone got vote and reputation, being a good democracy as it is. As a result, a wise man got the highest "reputation" for advocating the idea of making a huge free feast for everyone, all cost and expenses "paid" for by the tourists. At the same time there was a poor idiot who opposed the idea. While the story didn't reveal anything after that, we could imagine the poor guy didn't get a very good "reputation" and what's more, he might already "paid" the cost for that huge dinner along with those poor tourists he tried to protect...
A good story santa100. Thank you.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:26 am

Mr Man wrote:A good story santa100. Thank you.
It was a very poor analogy for the use of reputation on forums. Trolls are not innocent time travellers from 5BC who arrive by accident. They visit specifically to disrupt the forum.

The moderators cannot be watching always, and members don't want to report every post that they find offensive, off-topic, or hostile. A quick click to downvote the post indicates to everyone that the person is perhaps a troll.

Similarly, upvotes for good posts quickly show one's appreciation without disrupting the conversation.
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Kim OHara
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:54 am

Speaking about trolls ... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nts-online
... What these findings suggest is that any person who happens to wake up on the wrong side of the bed can be the spark that results in a cascade of bad behaviour. And if troll comments beget more troll comments, you can imagine a discussion, or even a whole community, being overrun by these kinds of posts if left unchecked.

We might hypothesise that “upvotes” and “downvotes” can solve the problem, as a community can use these signals to tell bad commenters that what they write isn’t appropriate or appreciated. However, voting can make matters worse. While it might have been designed as a simple indicator of a comment’s quality, it’s been shown that downvotes propagate negativity through a community. That is, people who have their comments downvoted not only write a greater number of negative, troll comments in the future, but they also retaliate by downvoting others. (And if you were hoping that being upvoted leads to better comments or more upvotes, this isn’t the case.) ...
:reading:
Kim

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Mr Man
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by Mr Man » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:34 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Mr Man wrote:A good story santa100. Thank you.
It was a very poor analogy for the use of reputation on forums. Trolls are not innocent time travellers from 5BC who arrive by accident. They visit specifically to disrupt the forum.

The moderators cannot be watching always, and members don't want to report every post that they find offensive, off-topic, or hostile. A quick click to downvote the post indicates to everyone that the person is perhaps a troll.

Similarly, upvotes for good posts quickly show one's appreciation without disrupting the conversation.
Hi Bhante

Well I guess our opinions differ. I could have upvoted santa100 and you could have downvoted santa100, if we had those buttons.

I go on other furums which have reputation ratings and in my opinion they don't necessarily indicate good or bad advice. They do create ill will and possibly are more often used by lurkers rather than participants (I guess the admin could monitor this).

We recently had the air BnB thread that shows how reputation can be misleading.

Would you like to see a reputation system implemented? If so how would you like to see it done?

:anjali:

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:57 am

A simple upvote downvote system like on the Vivaldi forums works well. I receive notifications for upvotes, but not for downvotes. The vote count for each post indicates how popular the feature request is. Here, it would be a vote for the quality of the reply. If someone gets a lot of downvotes, others will soon realise that they are not worth paying attention to.

More complex system like on the old Serif forums count posts as well as reputation votes. As the post count passes certain thresholds you get a new label like Guru, Master, Expert, etc., while the reputation votes add up to green squares (or red squares if someone only makes negative posts).

Simpler is better IMO. Everyone should understand that it's just a rough guide to knowledge or behaviour, as any reputation system. I know two monks with an OBE. One thoroughly deserved it, the other did not.
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cjmacie
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by cjmacie » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:07 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:...More complex system like on the old Serif forums count posts as well as reputation votes. As the post count passes certain thresholds you get a new label like Guru, Master, Expert, etc., while the reputation votes add up to green squares (or red squares if someone only makes negative posts)...
That must have been a s/w well-behaved environment. There's also a kind of posting mania that can border on psychopathology.

"Sea-lioning" also can contribute to posting volume.

Otherwise, some good ideas I hadn't been aware of.

santa100
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by santa100 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:21 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:A quick click to downvote the post indicates to everyone that the person is perhaps a troll.
Well, then the quality of the post would depends entirely on the trolls vs. non-trolls ratio in those who voted. On a bad day, if the trolls outnumbers the non-trolls, all the good posts would get downvoted and nasty ones would get upvoted. And vice versa. So if we're to implement the voting system, then we should also open up info. about the voter "demography". For when it comes to the evaluation of a specific technical point on a specific Dhamma topic, a downvote from a davidbrainerd is not exactly the same as a downvote from Ven. Dhammanando or Pesala. And if on a particular day, there're 2 or 3 davidbrainerd's for every Dhammanando, then...you get the picture. And this might explains what happened to those 2 monks in your post:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I know two monks with an OBE. One thoroughly deserved it, the other did not.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:35 pm

Off-topic posts from the "Future of Dhamma Wheel" thread have been moved here since those posts were about the reputation, thumbs up system.

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Zom
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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:52 pm

On our russian theravada forum we made "Only Upvotes" system, there is no "Downvote" button at all. Reputation (N of votes received) is shown just below the avatar near the N of posts. Works good. Usually good posters have 2:1 proportion (like ~2 votes per 1 message). Trolls and non-buddhists - vice versa, like 1 vote per 2 or even 3-4 messages. People who argue too much, but who are generally buddhists, have ~1:1 proportion.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:12 pm

What would be the point? It would just become a competition for who can get the most up-votes. I still don't like it. The answer is still no unless I can hear much more compelling points (and if the other mods agreed too), so far still no good reason that I can see for having it.

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Zom
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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:43 pm

What would be the point?
Newcomer sees whose posts worth paying attention and whose not so much .)
It would just become a competition for who can get the most up-votes
Not necessarily, at least, well, not all the time for sure. As for me, I'm okay with the present "no-karma" system as well. However, I don't like "Downvote" system - people feel really bad when they get negative status and so don't feel free to enter a conversation or start a topic.

binocular
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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by binocular » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:51 pm

Zom wrote:Newcomer sees whose posts worth paying attention and whose not so much .)
And online Buddhist forums are such good representatives of what is relevant in Buddhism, right?
Especially when the TOS and the leadership of the forums are in conflict with some of the teachings in the Pali suttas ...

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Mkoll
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by Mkoll » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:21 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:It would just become a competition for who can get the most up-votes.
I wouldn't frame it like that. I'd frame it as encouragement to make the most high-quality posts. And that's not a bad thing.

I like Zom's idea or the way they do it on Sutta Central where one can "like" posts but not "dislike" them and there is no obvious reputation gauge for members if there is one at all. The fact is, a lot of sites with discussion sections use reputation, "like" systems, upvoting-downvoting, or similar including some of the most popular like Facebook and Reddit.
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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

binocular
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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by binocular » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:29 pm

Bringing attention to this post from over six years ago, earlier in this thread:

retrofuturist wrote:If the quality of the Dhamma was determined by popular vote, then this may have some practical use.

However, since realistically it's not, this functionality is only likely to create tension and turn the art of posting into a popularity contest.

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