Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Post by BlackBird » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:15 pm

While we're on the topic of preceptors and lineages, let's not forget where this 'Theravadin' lineage of Bhikkhunis has arisen from.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:25 pm

Hi Jack,
I thought the Sri Lankan line werent from there? I though it was reinstated by a single ordination done by monks in sri lanka?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination ... #Sri_Lanka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammalight.com/corresponden ... aloka.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (about half way down)
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:38 pm

realised it was posted on the wrong thread sorry please delete this post
Last edited by Cittasanto on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Post by BlackBird » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:43 pm

Hi Manapa

I don't really know what to think about ordination of Bhikkhuni's where actual Bhikkhuni's do not serve as preceptors. Safe to say I don't know enough about this to form an opinion.

Also on a side note JC only the Siam Nikaya actually comes from Thailand. Interestingly it is the same chapter of Sri Lankan Buddhism that only admits members from the highest social caste. They're pretty much the ones in charge too it seems, and control many of the historic and important sites. The Amarapura Nikaya comes from Burma, so to the Rammana Nikaya. It is in the latter two that you'll actually find most of the real practitioners, particularly the Rammana Nikaya, which contains the Galduwa Forest tradition.
Last edited by BlackBird on Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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tellyontellyon
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Post by tellyontellyon » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:02 pm

Still not sure... does a Bhikkuni wanting to be part of the Therevada tradition need a Therevadin preceptor... or is a Bhukkuni, is a Bhukkuni, is a Bhukkuni?

Is the necessity for the preceptor to be a Therevadin Bhukkuni, or would a Bhukkuni from another tradition qualify?
Does the vinaya specify that the Bhukkuni must be from the same tradition?

Do Therevadins not recognise Bukkhunis from other traditions as Bhikkunis?

Sorry to ask so many questions. :embarassed:
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:48 pm

tellyontellyon wrote:Still not sure... does a Bhikkuni wanting to be part of the Therevada tradition need a Therevadin preceptor... or is a Bhukkuni, is a Bhukkuni, is a Bhukkuni?

Is the necessity for the preceptor to be a Therevadin Bhukkuni, or would a Bhukkuni from another tradition qualify?
Does the vinaya specify that the Bhukkuni must be from the same tradition?

Do Therevadins not recognise Bukkhunis from other traditions as Bhikkunis?

Sorry to ask so many questions. :embarassed:
A bhikkhuni is a bhikkhuni etc, but the different vinaya lines are not all the same in the amount of rules they follow so this would or could cause problems in sanghakamma (that is to my knowledge anyway quite happy to be proven wrong).
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Post by jcsuperstar » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:09 pm

here, from the wiki, maybe it helps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinaya
Vinayas arose in Buddhism, based upon geographical or cultural differences and the different Buddhist schools that developed. Three of these are still in use. The Vinayas are the same in substance and have only minor differences. Buddhists in Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Sri Lanka, and Thailand follow the Theravadin Vinaya, which has 227 rules for the bhikkhus (male monastics) and 311 for the bhikkhunis (female monastics, though the female order died out centuries ago and recent attempts to restore it from the Chinese tradition are controversial). Buddhists in China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam follow the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya (四分律), which has 250 rules[5] for the bhikkhus and 348 rules[6] for the bhikkhunis. Buddhists in Tibet and Mongolia follow the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya
so you see when we talk about being a theravada monk, in this situation, it is refering to the theravada vinaya, not really any specific philosophical ideology.
how monks, nuns, priests from other traditions are accepted by theravada is on a case by case basis depending on the monk youre talking to. some temples/monks may be more liberal than others. there is no ruling body, or pope of theravada to decide such things.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Post by BudSas » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:33 am

jcsuperstar wrote:here, from the wiki, maybe it helps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinaya
Vinayas arose in Buddhism, based upon geographical or cultural differences and the different Buddhist schools that developed. Three of these are still in use. The Vinayas are the same in substance and have only minor differences. Buddhists in Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Sri Lanka, and Thailand follow the Theravadin Vinaya, which has 227 rules for the bhikkhus (male monastics) and 311 for the bhikkhunis (female monastics, though the female order died out centuries ago and recent attempts to restore it from the Chinese tradition are controversial). Buddhists in China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam follow the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya (四分律), which has 250 rules[5] for the bhikkhus and 348 rules[6] for the bhikkhunis. Buddhists in Tibet and Mongolia follow the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya
Generally, the main difference between the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya and the Theravada Vinaya is in the Sekhiya part (rules for training): The DV contains more rules than the TV.

BDS

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