A recent entry on Ven Sujato's blog:
Reform http://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/reform/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is worth reading if you are completely unfamiliar with the developments in Burma and Thailand in the 19th and 20th Centuries: In Thailand the founding of the Dhammayut sect by King Monkut, and thoroughly established by one of his sons, and the beginnings of the various Forest groups; in Burma the developments in meditation instruction by the likes of Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, U Ban Kin, Goenka, Pa Auk Sayadaw, etc. Ven Sujato's Blog covers some of this, perhaps a little superficially. He also mentions the question of translation to local languages, which he claims was actually precipitated by the early English translation efforts.
One thing that I think is useful to have an overview of is that the Thai and Thai-derived meditation teachers who are well-known in the west (such as the Ajahn Chah group, Ven Thanissaro, etc) are the ones who tend to be the "Suttas + personal experience" type, derived from the Forest groups, whereas the Burmese teachers (and hence many western "vipassana" instructors, such as Joseph Goldstein) are much more Abhidhamma/Commentary based.
Metta
Mike
Modernish Theravada History
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Modernish Theravada History
And this manifests how?mikenz66 wrote: whereas the Burmese teachers (and hence many western "vipassana" instructors, such as Joseph Goldstein) are much more Abhidhamma/Commentary based.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Modernish Theravada History
Hi Tilt,
OK, I'll play along and speculate. One way in which it may manifest for some of us who started with Burmese-derived teachers is that we see the Abhidhamma and Commentaries as important because that's where the approach and language we learned come from. Whereas it's those who started with Ajahn Chah students, or other Forest monks who get the message about "sticking with the actual words of the Buddha" (i.e. the Suttas).
Of course, this is a gross oversimplification, but it's certainly true that the teachings of Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, U Pandita, Pa Auk Sayadaw, etc, are very much based on the Abhidhamma, Commentaries, and Visuddhimagga and that I've heard that "words of the Buddha" thing from several Forest Monks...
The point is not so much to argue about it, but to clarify where the various modern teachers are similar or different. This knowledge might avoid some confusion when comparing teachings from different groups. I.e., don't be surprised if Ajahh Chah and Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings seem to have some differences.
Metta
Mike
I thought that was for you to tell us...tiltbillings wrote:And this manifests how?mikenz66 wrote: whereas the Burmese teachers (and hence many western "vipassana" instructors, such as Joseph Goldstein) are much more Abhidhamma/Commentary based.
OK, I'll play along and speculate. One way in which it may manifest for some of us who started with Burmese-derived teachers is that we see the Abhidhamma and Commentaries as important because that's where the approach and language we learned come from. Whereas it's those who started with Ajahn Chah students, or other Forest monks who get the message about "sticking with the actual words of the Buddha" (i.e. the Suttas).
Of course, this is a gross oversimplification, but it's certainly true that the teachings of Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, U Pandita, Pa Auk Sayadaw, etc, are very much based on the Abhidhamma, Commentaries, and Visuddhimagga and that I've heard that "words of the Buddha" thing from several Forest Monks...
The point is not so much to argue about it, but to clarify where the various modern teachers are similar or different. This knowledge might avoid some confusion when comparing teachings from different groups. I.e., don't be surprised if Ajahh Chah and Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings seem to have some differences.
Metta
Mike
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Modernish Theravada History
I'd say so, given that sutta study is not necessarily strongly emphasized in the Ajahn Chah tradition, which is what I was told by Ajahn Sumedho when I was in Thailand in the mid 70's. The Ajahn Chah tradition is more a Vinaya keeping tradition, using the Vinaya as a basis for practice. Western teachers such as Goldstein certainly do not de-emphasize the suttas.mikenz66 wrote:
Of course, this is a gross oversimplification,
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Modernish Theravada History
Well ... I don't know ... Everybody says the Burmese are especially strong on the abhidhamma, and that may be true.
Maybe I did not look close enough - but I did not find much that was specific abhidhamma in the teaching of U Janaka, who was a pupil of Mahasi Sayadaw.
The meditation teacher that most actively has used abhidhamma in her teaching, is probably Achaan Naeb from Thailand. And one of the least "abhidhammic" meditation teachers is Dr. Thynn Thynn from Burma.
So these generalities should be taken with some reservations.
Maybe I did not look close enough - but I did not find much that was specific abhidhamma in the teaching of U Janaka, who was a pupil of Mahasi Sayadaw.
The meditation teacher that most actively has used abhidhamma in her teaching, is probably Achaan Naeb from Thailand. And one of the least "abhidhammic" meditation teachers is Dr. Thynn Thynn from Burma.
So these generalities should be taken with some reservations.
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
Re: Modernish Theravada History
Thank you Mike for alerting us of Ajahn Sujato's blog and his brief history of 'modern' Buddhism.
It may prove to be a valuable resource, particularly those curious and new to the path.
metta
Ben
It may prove to be a valuable resource, particularly those curious and new to the path.
metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Modernish Theravada History
Thanks everyone for your comments...
And of course the situation is confused because nowadays many Thai teachers teach derivatives of the Mahasi approach. It's the "official technique" of my local Thai Wat...
Mike
Perhaps I should have emphasised Visiddhimagga rather than Abhidhamma. My experience after haveing practised with Mahasi-style teachers was that the discussion of insight in the Visuddhimagga seemed quite familiar (e.g. in walking meditation breaking up the step into lifting, moving, lowering, etc...).Kare wrote:Well ... I don't know ... Everybody says the Burmese are especially strong on the abhidhamma, and that may be true.
Maybe I did not look close enough - but I did not find much that was specific abhidhamma in the teaching of U Janaka, who was a pupil of Mahasi Sayadaw.
Yes, well I did say that the Forest monks emphasised experience... And I didn't say that Goldstein de-emphasises Suttas, but that the Mahasi approach draws from Commentary.tiltbillings wrote:I'd say so, given that sutta study is not necessarily strongly emphasized in the Ajahn Chah tradition, which is what I was told by Ajahn Sumedho when I was in Thailand in the mid 70's. The Ajahn Chah tradition is more a Vinaya keeping tradition, using the Vinaya as a basis for practice. Western teachers such as Goldstein certainly do not de-emphasize the suttas.mikenz66 wrote: Of course, this is a gross oversimplification,
And of course the situation is confused because nowadays many Thai teachers teach derivatives of the Mahasi approach. It's the "official technique" of my local Thai Wat...
Mike
Last edited by mikenz66 on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Modernish Theravada History
It is not really that simple. When I was in Thailand, I heard repeatedly (and from learned monks, such as the abbot of Wat Bawon) that the ability to attain jhana has long been lost. The was a common theme throughout the Theravadin world for a very long time. Even with the present day jhana-wallahs there is a wide divergence of opinions about it, about how it is attained, etc, which suggests there is likely some truth to the "jhana has been lost" notion, but certainly jhana has been found (variously).Ven Sujato in his blog wrote:In questioning the necessity for jhana, the Burmese elders were not merely positing a different approach to meditation, but were challenging one of the very factors of the eightfold path itself, Right Samadhi.
The Mahasi Sayadaw tradition never denied the function of jhana; rather, they pointed out that it is not a necessity to gaining insight and even the attainment of stream-entry. My first traditional nimatta, one pointedness jhana experience was with an Indian teacher who was a direct student of Mahasi Sayadaw from whom he learned the practice. The Mahasi Sayadaw "vipassana jhanas" are clearly a recognition that the traditional descriptions, as in the Buddhsghosa, do not fully cover the experience(s).
So, things are never really quite so simple.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Modernish Theravada History
Yes. I agree that you've got a point there.mikenz66 wrote:Thanks everyone for your comments...Perhaps I should have emphasised Visiddhimagga rather than Abhidhamma. My experience after haveing practised with Mahasi-style teachers was that the discussion of insight in the Visuddhimagga seemed quite familiar (e.g. in walking meditation breaking up the step into lifting, moving, lowering, etc...).Kare wrote:Well ... I don't know ... Everybody says the Burmese are especially strong on the abhidhamma, and that may be true.
Maybe I did not look close enough - but I did not find much that was specific abhidhamma in the teaching of U Janaka, who was a pupil of Mahasi Sayadaw.
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
Re: Modernish Theravada History
Hi Tilt,
Mike
Yes, I've not heard Mahasi teachers be negative about jhana, either of the "vipassnana" or "normal" type. Similarly Pa Auk Sayadaw mentions that he teaches both jhana and "pure insight" approaches.tiltbillings wrote: The Mahasi Sayadaw tradition never denied the function of jhana; rather, they pointed out that it is not a necessity to gaining insight and even the attainment of stream-entry. My first traditional nimatta, one pointedness jhana experience was with an Indian teacher who was a direct student of Mahasi Sayadaw from whom he learned the practice. The Mahasi Sayadaw "vipassana jhanas" are clearly a recognition that the traditional descriptions, as in the Buddhsghosa, do not fully cover the experience(s).
Mike
Re: Modernish Theravada History
Additionally, I am not very impressed with Ajahn Sujato's blog entry.
Meditation began in Burma as a response to the psychic shock of being invaded by the British and the very different world view they and their accompanying Christian clerics presented. Lay Meditation was not common in any of the Buddhist countries - nor had been for millenia. It was usually the province of the ordained sangha.
But, in response to the search for something specifically buddhist which could be 'reclaimed' by the Burmese, King Mindon and the Court began to practise meditation.
It grew from there.
metta
Chris
Meditation began in Burma as a response to the psychic shock of being invaded by the British and the very different world view they and their accompanying Christian clerics presented. Lay Meditation was not common in any of the Buddhist countries - nor had been for millenia. It was usually the province of the ordained sangha.
But, in response to the search for something specifically buddhist which could be 'reclaimed' by the Burmese, King Mindon and the Court began to practise meditation.
It grew from there.
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: Modernish Theravada History
From what I read and personal contacts with 2 meditation teachers of Pa Auk Sayadaw style, it seems they also rely heavily on the Visuddhimagga material, only with different emphasis than the Mahasi style.mikenz66 wrote: Yes, I've not heard Mahasi teachers be negative about jhana, either of the "vipassnana" or "normal" type. Similarly Pa Auk Sayadaw mentions that he teaches both jhana and "pure insight" approaches.
BDS
- Cittasanto
- Posts: 6646
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
- Location: Ellan Vannin
- Contact:
Re: Modernish Theravada History
Hi Mike,
I was re-reading a part of his history of mindfulness the other night, the part where he suggests the original satipatthana is basically the Vibbangha version found in the Abhidhamma (minus the Abhidhammic slant in presentation, but the areas covered are the original areas, I think that is a reasonably accurate way of representing it anyway?) although I feel he may be too strict in his decoding of what was in the original offering; I don't think he will be far off.
reflect that regarding the Meditation center approach of Goenka I think it may actually be along a similar line to the original training, not exactly the same but similar in many aspects, remembering that the Patimokkha developed over 45years or there about, so the original bhikkhus would of been essentially what we now call novices, but that is if I am understanding the development correctly.
EDIT - maybe I should point out I am being general and not taking the reasons for the starting up of the lay centers into account but rather how they have developed.
I was re-reading a part of his history of mindfulness the other night, the part where he suggests the original satipatthana is basically the Vibbangha version found in the Abhidhamma (minus the Abhidhammic slant in presentation, but the areas covered are the original areas, I think that is a reasonably accurate way of representing it anyway?) although I feel he may be too strict in his decoding of what was in the original offering; I don't think he will be far off.
reflect that regarding the Meditation center approach of Goenka I think it may actually be along a similar line to the original training, not exactly the same but similar in many aspects, remembering that the Patimokkha developed over 45years or there about, so the original bhikkhus would of been essentially what we now call novices, but that is if I am understanding the development correctly.
EDIT - maybe I should point out I am being general and not taking the reasons for the starting up of the lay centers into account but rather how they have developed.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Modernish Theravada History
Thanks everyone for the interesting input.
As I've indicated above, I'm aware in a superficial sort of way how some of the 19th and 20th C developments in Burma and Thailand connect to the Dhamma that is readily available to Westerners.
The third important source is Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka is a key connection for English language Dhamma translations. The early English translations by the PTS were a result of Sri Lankan connection by way of T. W. Rhys Davids. Ven Nyanatiloka, a German, ordained in 1903 in Burma, but spent most of the rest of his life in Sri Lanka, where he and his various German (Nyanaponika), English (Nanamoli, Nanavira) and American (Bhodhi) successors produced many of the modern English translations by Scholar-Monks (as opposed to the Scholar-Academics who produced the early PTS translations - many of their later translations are by monastics, such as Venerables Narada's Abhidhamma translations, and some are co-published with Wisdom i.e. MN, SN. See http://www.palitext.com/palitext/tran.htm).
What is totally unclear to me is to what extent Ven Nyanatiloka and his successors (Western and Asian) reinvented the Dhamma and to what extent they drew from current Sri Lankan interpretations. I'm sure that this is explained in various scholarly books, but would anyone care to give an executive summary?
Metta
Mike
As I've indicated above, I'm aware in a superficial sort of way how some of the 19th and 20th C developments in Burma and Thailand connect to the Dhamma that is readily available to Westerners.
The third important source is Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka is a key connection for English language Dhamma translations. The early English translations by the PTS were a result of Sri Lankan connection by way of T. W. Rhys Davids. Ven Nyanatiloka, a German, ordained in 1903 in Burma, but spent most of the rest of his life in Sri Lanka, where he and his various German (Nyanaponika), English (Nanamoli, Nanavira) and American (Bhodhi) successors produced many of the modern English translations by Scholar-Monks (as opposed to the Scholar-Academics who produced the early PTS translations - many of their later translations are by monastics, such as Venerables Narada's Abhidhamma translations, and some are co-published with Wisdom i.e. MN, SN. See http://www.palitext.com/palitext/tran.htm).
What is totally unclear to me is to what extent Ven Nyanatiloka and his successors (Western and Asian) reinvented the Dhamma and to what extent they drew from current Sri Lankan interpretations. I'm sure that this is explained in various scholarly books, but would anyone care to give an executive summary?
Metta
Mike
Re: Modernish Theravada History
HI Mike
As it turns out, I have been reading historical-critical books on modern Buddhism. IMHO, I think it helps our individual practice to have an awareness of how our understanding of Buddhism has been (and continues to be shape by) broader historical forces. I have compiled notes that address the questions you ask in this thread. I'll need to go pick out the salient points. Will post again.
As it turns out, I have been reading historical-critical books on modern Buddhism. IMHO, I think it helps our individual practice to have an awareness of how our understanding of Buddhism has been (and continues to be shape by) broader historical forces. I have compiled notes that address the questions you ask in this thread. I'll need to go pick out the salient points. Will post again.
With metta,
zavk
zavk