Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

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Buddha Vacana
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by Buddha Vacana »

Thank you Bhante
:anjali:
ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by ToVincent »

Dhammanando wrote:The elements pa, u and upa are verbal prefixes (upasagga), not nouns.
Pa, in Pali, is also described as adjective ("drinking") in this little dictionary of roots:
http://obo.genaud.net/backmatter/glosso ... oots.htm#P
Pa has actually to do with "drinking" in Sanskrit, also.
But it has also the meaning of "guarding".
I don't see why you would absolutely reduce Pa as a verbal prefixe; and why you would reject the possibility of having it as an adjective (Pasthāna = paṭṭhāna = standing firmly guarding); or a verb (Pasthāna = paṭṭhāna = guard standing firmly"). "Firmly" being proper to Sanskrit.

I still hold the equivalence between smṛti and sati as possible; viz. "recollection of the Dhamma" (done & spoken).
I also still hold that this translation is far more explicative, when it comes to read the simile of the gate keeper in SN 35.245, than any other translation. This simile is about the only clear cut definition of what Sati is all about.
Sati (recollection of the Dhamma) is definitely the guardian of the six internal spheres of senses (ajjhatikāni āyatanāni). And the discernment of the bodies, feelings, minds and phenomena is just about that Dhamma to keep in memory.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
Buddha Vacana
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by Buddha Vacana »

Perhaps the Buddha wanted to invite us all for a drink while standing, but the entire Sangha got the message wrong.
:toast:
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Dhammanando
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by Dhammanando »

ToVincent wrote:Pa, in Pali, is also described as adjective ("drinking") in this little dictionary of roots:
http://obo.genaud.net/backmatter/glosso ... oots.htm#P
Pa has actually to do with "drinking" in Sanskrit, also.
But it has also the meaning of "guarding".
Sure, but in Pali word-formation verbal roots like these don't appear "raw" in a word. To be rendered lexically serviceable they must first undergo modification by the addition of some suffix. √Pā in the sense of 'guard', for example, might become pāl(a).
ToVincent wrote:I don't see why you would absolutely reduce Pa as a verbal prefixe; and why you would reject the possibility of having it as an adjective (Pasthāna = paṭṭhāna = standing firmly guarding); or a verb (Pasthāna = paṭṭhāna = guard standing firmly"). "Firmly" being proper to Sanskrit.
Then it might pay you to study the Pali language, rather than limiting yourself to dictionary-based guesswork. I reject it firstly because of the finite verb form upaṭṭheti —almost certainly the source of the paṭṭhāna part*— being unambiguously derived from upa + √ṭhā. Secondly because your conjectured verbal roots haven't undergone any of the recognized forms of modification. Thirdly because of the sheer implausibility of two verbal roots being combined in a single word-stem.

* Evidenced, for example, by the common sutta phrase "satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā".
ToVincent wrote:I still hold the equivalence between smṛti and sati as possible; viz. "recollection of the Dhamma" (done & spoken).
If by "equivalence" you mean their cognateness, this is more than just possible, it's beyond dispute.
ToVincent wrote:I also still hold that this translation is far more explicative, when it comes to read the simile of the gate keeper in SN 35.245, than any other translation. This simile is about the only clear cut definition of what Sati is all about.
The conjecture will no doubt serve well as an edifying (albeit ersatz) folk etymology, but as far as historical philology goes it's quite untenable.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by ToVincent »

I am not a fan of refering to the Upanishads, but in this context, it is good to remember what Memory (smara in Sanskrit - smara is the root for sṃrti,) could have meant at the time of Buddha.
We find in Chandogya Upaniśad, in the thirteenth Khaṇḍha of the Seventh chapter, the definition of Memory.
Memory (smara) verily is more than Space.
----
If they should remember, then they would hear, then they would think, then they would understand. Through Memory, assuredly, one discerns his children.
----
As far as Memory goes, so far he has unlimited freedom.
----
In the fourteenth Khaṇḍa:
Memory learns the sacred sayings (mantra).
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by ToVincent »

Dhammanando wrote:...
Then what is your literal translation of satipaṭṭhāna; as asked previously?

And why would it be possible to have sṃrtipasthāna as "standing (firmly), guarding sṃrti" in Sanskrit; but not in the Pali?
So, for instance, in Sanskrit, "sṃrtipa" means "guarding sṃrti (guarding the recollection of the sacred texts). "Apānapa" means "guarding the vital air (apāna)", etc.
So pa, in fine compositi, means guarding something in Sanskrit. Guarding the sṃrti (sati;) etc.

Is the Pali's grammar so different from the Sanskrit's one? Na!

Now, I am not "folkying the etymology" of the Pali and the Suttas. I am trying to find in satipaṭṭhāna the "guarding" meaning that appears in the simile in SN 35.245 ( https://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.245/15 ) .
‘Suppose, bhikkhu, a king had a frontier city with strong ramparts, walls, and arches, and with six gates. The gatekeeper posted there would be wise, competent, and intelligent; one who keeps out strangers* and admits acquaintances.
*For those who still think that we should let everything in.
---
The six gates’: this is a designation for the six internal sense bases. ‘The gatekeeper’: this is a designation for mindfulness.
I think I remain in the spirit of the Sutta; very closely.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by Assaji »

CecilN wrote:If this is so then "establishment" may be the better translation. But this does not clarify the Buddha's intent of how mindfulness or remembering is to be used.
Yes, clarification of Buddha's intent requires many more sources.
However more graceful the latter might sound, the accent is on the internal process of setting mindfulness up rather than on the object to which it applies.... 'parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā' - 'having established remembrance near the mouth'.
I have doubts that satipatthana refers to the process of setting mindfulness up. If satipatthana was the process of setting up mindfulness parimukhaṃ, it would only occur at the beginning of meditation.
Well, it's hard to fit the popular definition of 'mindfulness' here, but as for 'sati' - it is indeed said to be established (upaṭṭhapetvā) near the mouth 'parimukham' in the practice of Anapanasati. It is not 'ministering'. One has to keep every inbreath and outbreath in mind, hence continual remembrance is required.

The Commentary notes:
Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

'Sati upaṭṭhāna' means that 'sati', having approached, stays on that basis of concentration (ārammaṇa) (i.e. the perceptual image (nimitta) which has arisen due to natural in-and-out-breath).

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509
Per MN 117, I propose in the context of formal meditation or contemplation ('anupassi'), satipatthana refers to establishing or applying mindfulness (sati) towards the four objects of contemplation (anupassana).
Indeed, sati is keeping one of four satipatthana domains in mind:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p387615
Here, when the mind (vinnana;mano) contemplates or observes the four objects, the role of mindfulness is to remember to put aside greed & distress (MN 118) or lead away the unhappiness that comes from wanting (SN 47.10) when experiencing those objects.
I would rather refer these functions to Right Effort, in line with MN 117. Right effort isn't directly mentioned in Satipatthana sutta, and has to be studied on the basis of other suttas on Satipatthana. I would particularly recommend Bhikkhunupassaya sutta:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 656#p88181

Best regards
ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by ToVincent »

Note on Upaṭṭheti,[Caus.of upaṭṭhahati]:
Attend, look after, cares for, to be ready,to be present.

Thanissaro and Bodhi have translated "parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā" as "setting mindfulness to the fore" (in front of him). As in here (ctrl S on upaṭṭh).
You can see that in the alternate translation, upaṭṭhitā has been translated as "present". Meaning that the sati is attended, looked after, ready, cared for.
"To the fore" takes the meaning of a mindfulness that is the outpost, the first bastion of defence.
The somewhat literal translation of "parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā" becomes then: "making sati present to the front".
Wich goes pretty well with a satipaṭṭhāna that means: "standing (firmly) guarding/preserving sati" (the memory [of the Dhamma/Teaching]).
In other words, you guard/preserve the Teaching [by remembering it and applying it]; and put that Teaching in the front, as your outpost. The first defense of not being "that" or being "in that" [SN 35.95]. Or the way to discern the nimitta (attribute) of your own mind (citta/feeling-perception) [SN 47.8]; etc. - being paññavimutti (liberated in discernment,) and cetovimutti (liberated in mind).
----

Note on right-effort (sammā-vāyāma):
The accurate definition of "right effort" might be this https://suttacentral.net/en/sn45.8/9 if we refer to this post.
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... rt#p407839

Right effort is just the preamble and the continuity in mindfulness.
There is not yet pañña (discernment) of the external and internal wholesome and unwholesome nature of the states in sammāvāyāma.
Sammāvāyāma is just the discernment of the nature of the states (viz. good or bad).
Sati, as Teaching applied AND recollection of the Teaching (done & said), is what takes one to the next level of discernment.
Sati is more concerned with the self-view. Making sure that we are not the "That" of the "by That". Making sure to cultivate the nimitta of our own citta and keep the "That" at bay.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by Assaji »

Hi,

As for "parimukhaṃ", - the earliest and hence most reliable explanation of this term can be found in Vibhanga, - as the area at the tip of the nose (nāsikagge) or at the lip of the mouth (mukhanimitte):

"Parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa"ti tattha katamaa sati? Yaa sati anussati pa.tissati …pe… sammaasati - aya.m vuccati "sati". Aya.m sati upa.t.thitaa hoti supa.t.thitaa naasikagge vaa mukhanimitte vaa. Tena vuccati "parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa"ti.

Vibhangapali .252

The translation "in front" is probably a result of commentarial error, - see http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5636
ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by ToVincent »

Dmytro wrote:"earliest and hence"
Does that necessarily makes it more reliable!?!

I suppose that we will have to rely on Sanskrit once more (sorry to have to direct you towards a french/pali site): http://sanskrit.inria.fr/DICO/51.html#mukha
"front d'une armée" means an "army front".
"ājimukha" means "first line in a battle", for instance.

Pari has the same meaning in Sanskrit than in Pali; viz. "about".
=> Parimukha could well mean: "about (in the area of) the front (line)".
That does not mean that you have to battle "That". But just replacing it, with your own nimitta. You have to apply right effort with pañña (discernment).

A bit better than that lousy "'having established remembrance near the mouth"!?!? . Gee whiz; what that could probably mean!?!?.

I guess that Bodhi & Thanissaro had already experienced the "That"; when they translated that pericope.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by CecilN »

Dmytro wrote:Well, it's hard to fit the popular definition of 'mindfulness' here, but as for 'sati' - it is indeed said to be established (upaṭṭhapetvā) near the mouth 'parimukham' in the practice of Anapanasati. It is not 'ministering'. One has to keep every inbreath and outbreath in mind, hence continual remembrance is required.
This attitude results in ineffective & 'yogic' practise. This is only a beginner's level of practice. It will not lead far.

MN 118 describes two distinct things: (i) the mind/the meditator bringing mindfulness to the fore (parimukham); & (ii) knowing every in breath and out breath. Knowing breathing is not right mindfulness. It is a result of right mindfulness. Right mindfulness is remembering to keep the mind free from defiled hindrances. Parimukham is establishing a clear awake non-hindered mind.
The Commentary notes:

Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

'Sati upaṭṭhāna' means that 'sati', having approached, stays on that basis of concentration (ārammaṇa) (i.e. the perceptual image (nimitta) which has arisen due to natural in-and-out-breath).
What knows & stays with the natural in-and-out-breath is consciousness. As an example, I can use mindfulness with the goal of watching Martians but because there is no way to be conscious of Martians, my mind will never stay in continuous sense contact with Martians.

No act of volition is required to know the natural in-and-out-breath. The only role in true meditation of mindfulness is to remember to keep the mind clear & bring 'sampajanna' ('situational wisdom') into play. Sati works together with sampajanna.

The commentaries quoted are only commentaries representing a crude & clumsy level of practise. The Buddha would never speak in this way because it is not his way of practise. The commentary is 'yogic' (Hindu) practice (hatha yoga).
Dmytro wrote:Indeed, sati is keeping one of four satipatthana domains in mind:
The mind cannot volitionally or mindfully keep one of the "four domains" in mind. This is why practise can be a struggle. The "four domains" are natural non-volitional arisings that occur when the previous domain has been developed properly.

My intention is not to argue with you. It was only to clarify the meaning of Satipatthana. I will stick to my view because, as I posted, the ideas you are posting are 'yogic' and bring only limited results.

Please refer to SN 48.10, where it is said jhana is attained by making vossagga (letting go) the object. Please refer to MN 118, which states mindfulness as a factor of enlightenment culiminates in vossagga (letting go).

Regards
ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by ToVincent »

.
It is, friend, when these four establishments of mindfulness are not developed and cultivated that the true Dhamma declines.
SN 47.23

The four "guarding/preserving of the recollection of the Teaching" (satipaṭṭhāna).
What are they?
A bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, with discernment (sampajāno - cf. pajanati/pañña), mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, with discernment, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; vedanāsu … pe …
SN 47.24
How to prepare oneself before dwelling in the four satipaṭṭhāna?
Well then, Bahiya, purify the very starting point of wholesome states. And what is the starting point of wholesome states? Virtue that is well purified and view that is straight. Then, Bahiya, when your virtue is well purified and your view is straight, based upon virtue, established upon virtue, you should develop the four establishments of mindfulness.
How to fulfil them?
Concentration by mindfulness of breathing, kanda, is the one thing which, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the four establishments of mindfulness (four guarding/preserving of the recollection of the Teaching). The four establishments of mindfulness (four guarding/preserving of the recollection of the Teaching), when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment.
SN 54.13
What should be developped with the four satipaṭṭhāna?
the four right strivings (sammappadhānāna) … the four bases for spiritual power (iddhipādāna) … the five faculties (indriyāna) … the five powers (balā) … the seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhaṅgā) … the Noble Eightfold Path (ariyassa aṭṭhaṅgikassa maggassa).
SN 22.101
What is ("right") dwelling in satipaṭṭhāna?
Move in your own resort, bhikkhus, in your own ancestral domain. Mara will not gain access to those who move in their own resort, in their own ancestral domain; Mara will not get a hold on them.
“And what is a bhikkhu’s resort, his own ancestral domain? It is the four establishments of mindfulness.
Gocare, bhikkhave, caratha sake pettike visaye. Gocare, bhikkhave, carataṃ sake pettike visaye na lacchati māro otāraṃ, na lacchati māro ārammaṇaṃ. Ko ca, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno gocaro sako pettiko visayo? Yadidaṃ—cattāro satipaṭṭhānā.
SN 47.6
Cf. also SN 47.8 (own mind).
When, Uttiya, based upon virtue, established upon virtue, you develop these four establishments of mindfulness in such a way, you will go beyond the realm of Death.
SN 47.16
What are the origination and cessation of the four satipaṭṭhāna?
Body > nutriment
Feeling > contact
Mind > Name & form
Phenomena > producing with the mind/mano (manasikāra).
SN 47.42
---
Happy new year to all of you.
Mudita.
----
Edited (3) to add link to AN.4.69 (SA 875–876) - Padhāna Sutta (four strivings).
Last edited by ToVincent on Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by Assaji »

ToVincent wrote:
Dmytro wrote:"earliest and hence"
Does that necessarily makes it more reliable!?!
Yes.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by Assaji »

CecilN wrote:This attitude results in ineffective & 'yogic' practise. This is only a beginner's level of practice. It will not lead far.
Hmmm... Seems like all this has to be explained in a form which would be easy to apply in practice.
Otherwise people, not being able to apply it properly, can't comprehend it.
I'm working on this.

For now, I can recommend Anapanasati chapter of Vimuttimagga - especially page 159:
https://archive.org/stream/ArahantUpato ... 1/mode/2up

and the works of Acharn Lee Dhammadharo:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html

Regards
ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by ToVincent »

Let's resume:

We have seen that grammatically speaking, it is feasible that Pa might, in fine compositi, be the adjective base of pa: guarding, protecting. ( http://sanskrit.inria.fr/MW/145.html#paf3 )

In Sanskrit, "king" is spelled "nṛpa" [«who protect men»].
We find such occurence in pali with janādhipa (a king [of men] - lit: protecting (pa) living creatures (janā) with wisdom (dhi)).
A woman child, 0 king, may prove
Even a better offspring than a male
Itthīpi hi ekacciyā,
seyyā posa janādhipa
SN 3.16
Satipa = protecting sati.

"Ṭhāna": (present participle); drawn from tiṭṭhati (√ṭhā ) - Skt.: sthā:
Standing, remaining, staying, abiding.

So a quite plausible definition of satipaṭṭhāna might be the following:

Satipaṭṭhāna = Standing (abiding,) protecting the recollection of the Teaching (Dhamma).

Yes/no ? - If no, specific reference(s) (book/page/extract, etc.,) from the pundits of grammar would be greatly appreciated (and even required).
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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