Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

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ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby ToVincent » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:46 pm

Dhammanando wrote:...

Then what is your literal translation of satipaṭṭhāna; as asked previously?

And why would it be possible to have sṃrtipasthāna as "standing (firmly), guarding sṃrti" in Sanskrit; but not in the Pali?
So, for instance, in Sanskrit, "sṃrtipa" means "guarding sṃrti (guarding the recollection of the sacred texts). "Apānapa" means "guarding the vital air (apāna)", etc.
So pa, in fine compositi, means guarding something in Sanskrit. Guarding the sṃrti (sati;) etc.

Is the Pali's grammar so different from the Sanskrit's one? Na!

Now, I am not "folkying the etymology" of the Pali and the Suttas. I am trying to find in satipaṭṭhāna the "guarding" meaning that appears in the simile in SN 35.245 ( https://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.245/15 ) .
‘Suppose, bhikkhu, a king had a frontier city with strong ramparts, walls, and arches, and with six gates. The gatekeeper posted there would be wise, competent, and intelligent; one who keeps out strangers* and admits acquaintances.
*For those who still think that we should let everything in.
---
The six gates’: this is a designation for the six internal sense bases. ‘The gatekeeper’: this is a designation for mindfulness.

I think I remain in the spirit of the Sutta; very closely.
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
Just as a chunk of salt, cast in water, loses its form and keeps only its taste; so does one who deals with the deathless loses himself in that reality.
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Dmytro
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby Dmytro » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:27 pm

CecilN wrote:If this is so then "establishment" may be the better translation. But this does not clarify the Buddha's intent of how mindfulness or remembering is to be used.


Yes, clarification of Buddha's intent requires many more sources.

However more graceful the latter might sound, the accent is on the internal process of setting mindfulness up rather than on the object to which it applies.... 'parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā' - 'having established remembrance near the mouth'.

I have doubts that satipatthana refers to the process of setting mindfulness up. If satipatthana was the process of setting up mindfulness parimukhaṃ, it would only occur at the beginning of meditation.


Well, it's hard to fit the popular definition of 'mindfulness' here, but as for 'sati' - it is indeed said to be established (upaṭṭhapetvā) near the mouth 'parimukham' in the practice of Anapanasati. It is not 'ministering'. One has to keep every inbreath and outbreath in mind, hence continual remembrance is required.

The Commentary notes:

Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

'Sati upaṭṭhāna' means that 'sati', having approached, stays on that basis of concentration (ārammaṇa) (i.e. the perceptual image (nimitta) which has arisen due to natural in-and-out-breath).

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509


Per MN 117, I propose in the context of formal meditation or contemplation ('anupassi'), satipatthana refers to establishing or applying mindfulness (sati) towards the four objects of contemplation (anupassana).


Indeed, sati is keeping one of four satipatthana domains in mind:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p387615

Here, when the mind (vinnana;mano) contemplates or observes the four objects, the role of mindfulness is to remember to put aside greed & distress (MN 118) or lead away the unhappiness that comes from wanting (SN 47.10) when experiencing those objects.


I would rather refer these functions to Right Effort, in line with MN 117. Right effort isn't directly mentioned in Satipatthana sutta, and has to be studied on the basis of other suttas on Satipatthana. I would particularly recommend Bhikkhunupassaya sutta:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 656#p88181

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby ToVincent » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:45 pm

Note on Upaṭṭheti,[Caus.of upaṭṭhahati]:
Attend, look after, cares for, to be ready,to be present.

Thanissaro and Bodhi have translated "parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā" as "setting mindfulness to the fore" (in front of him). As in here (ctrl S on upaṭṭh).
You can see that in the alternate translation, upaṭṭhitā has been translated as "present". Meaning that the sati is attended, looked after, ready, cared for.
"To the fore" takes the meaning of a mindfulness that is the outpost, the first bastion of defence.
The somewhat literal translation of "parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā" becomes then: "making sati present to the front".
Wich goes pretty well with a satipaṭṭhāna that means: "standing (firmly) guarding/preserving sati" (the memory [of the Dhamma/Teaching]).
In other words, you guard/preserve the Teaching [by remembering it and applying it]; and put that Teaching in the front, as your outpost. The first defense of not being "that" or being "in that" [SN 35.95]. Or the way to discern the nimitta (attribute) of your own mind (citta/feeling-perception) [SN 47.8]; etc. - being paññavimutti (liberated in discernment,) and cetovimutti (liberated in mind).
----

Note on right-effort (sammā-vāyāma):
The accurate definition of "right effort" might be this https://suttacentral.net/en/sn45.8/9 if we refer to this post.
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=28518&p=407824&hilit=right+effort#p407839

Right effort is just the preamble and the continuity in mindfulness.
There is not yet pañña (discernment) of the external and internal wholesome and unwholesome nature of the states in sammāvāyāma.
Sammāvāyāma is just the discernment of the nature of the states (viz. good or bad).
Sati, as Teaching applied AND recollection of the Teaching (done & said), is what takes one to the next level of discernment.
Sati is more concerned with the self-view. Making sure that we are not the "That" of the "by That". Making sure to cultivate the nimitta of our own citta and keep the "That" at bay.
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
Just as a chunk of salt, cast in water, loses its form and keeps only its taste; so does one who deals with the deathless loses himself in that reality.
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby Dmytro » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:42 pm

Hi,

As for "parimukhaṃ", - the earliest and hence most reliable explanation of this term can be found in Vibhanga, - as the area at the tip of the nose (nāsikagge) or at the lip of the mouth (mukhanimitte):

"Parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa"ti tattha katamaa sati? Yaa sati anussati pa.tissati …pe… sammaasati - aya.m vuccati "sati". Aya.m sati upa.t.thitaa hoti supa.t.thitaa naasikagge vaa mukhanimitte vaa. Tena vuccati "parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa"ti.

Vibhangapali .252

The translation "in front" is probably a result of commentarial error, - see http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5636

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby ToVincent » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:42 pm

Dmytro wrote:"earliest and hence"

Does that necessarily makes it more reliable!?!

I suppose that we will have to rely on Sanskrit once more (sorry to have to direct you towards a french/pali site): http://sanskrit.inria.fr/DICO/51.html#mukha
"front d'une armée" means an "army front".
"ājimukha" means "first line in a battle", for instance.

Pari has the same meaning in Sanskrit than in Pali; viz. "about".
=> Parimukha could well mean: "about (in the area of) the front (line)".
That does not mean that you have to battle "That". But just replacing it, with your own nimitta. You have to apply right effort with pañña (discernment).

A bit better than that lousy "'having established remembrance near the mouth"!?!? . Gee whiz; what that could probably mean!?!?.

I guess that Bodhi & Thanissaro had already experienced the "That"; when they translated that pericope.
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
Just as a chunk of salt, cast in water, loses its form and keeps only its taste; so does one who deals with the deathless loses himself in that reality.
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

CecilN
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby CecilN » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:00 pm

Dmytro wrote:Well, it's hard to fit the popular definition of 'mindfulness' here, but as for 'sati' - it is indeed said to be established (upaṭṭhapetvā) near the mouth 'parimukham' in the practice of Anapanasati. It is not 'ministering'. One has to keep every inbreath and outbreath in mind, hence continual remembrance is required.

This attitude results in ineffective & 'yogic' practise. This is only a beginner's level of practice. It will not lead far.

MN 118 describes two distinct things: (i) the mind/the meditator bringing mindfulness to the fore (parimukham); & (ii) knowing every in breath and out breath. Knowing breathing is not right mindfulness. It is a result of right mindfulness. Right mindfulness is remembering to keep the mind free from defiled hindrances. Parimukham is establishing a clear awake non-hindered mind.

The Commentary notes:

Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

'Sati upaṭṭhāna' means that 'sati', having approached, stays on that basis of concentration (ārammaṇa) (i.e. the perceptual image (nimitta) which has arisen due to natural in-and-out-breath).

What knows & stays with the natural in-and-out-breath is consciousness. As an example, I can use mindfulness with the goal of watching Martians but because there is no way to be conscious of Martians, my mind will never stay in continuous sense contact with Martians.

No act of volition is required to know the natural in-and-out-breath. The only role in true meditation of mindfulness is to remember to keep the mind clear & bring 'sampajanna' ('situational wisdom') into play. Sati works together with sampajanna.

The commentaries quoted are only commentaries representing a crude & clumsy level of practise. The Buddha would never speak in this way because it is not his way of practise. The commentary is 'yogic' (Hindu) practice (hatha yoga).

Dmytro wrote:Indeed, sati is keeping one of four satipatthana domains in mind:

The mind cannot volitionally or mindfully keep one of the "four domains" in mind. This is why practise can be a struggle. The "four domains" are natural non-volitional arisings that occur when the previous domain has been developed properly.

My intention is not to argue with you. It was only to clarify the meaning of Satipatthana. I will stick to my view because, as I posted, the ideas you are posting are 'yogic' and bring only limited results.

Please refer to SN 48.10, where it is said jhana is attained by making vossagga (letting go) the object. Please refer to MN 118, which states mindfulness as a factor of enlightenment culiminates in vossagga (letting go).

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby ToVincent » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:49 pm

.
It is, friend, when these four establishments of mindfulness are not developed and cultivated that the true Dhamma declines.
SN 47.23

The four "guarding/preserving of the recollection of the Teaching" (satipaṭṭhāna).
What are they?
A bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, with discernment (sampajāno - cf. pajanati/pañña), mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, with discernment, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; vedanāsu … pe …
SN 47.24


How to prepare oneself before dwelling in the four satipaṭṭhāna?
Well then, Bahiya, purify the very starting point of wholesome states. And what is the starting point of wholesome states? Virtue that is well purified and view that is straight. Then, Bahiya, when your virtue is well purified and your view is straight, based upon virtue, established upon virtue, you should develop the four establishments of mindfulness.


How to fulfil them?
Concentration by mindfulness of breathing, kanda, is the one thing which, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the four establishments of mindfulness (four guarding/preserving of the recollection of the Teaching). The four establishments of mindfulness (four guarding/preserving of the recollection of the Teaching), when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment.
SN 54.13


What should be developped with the four satipaṭṭhāna?
the four right strivings (sammappadhānāna) … the four bases for spiritual power (iddhipādāna) … the five faculties (indriyāna) … the five powers (balā) … the seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhaṅgā) … the Noble Eightfold Path (ariyassa aṭṭhaṅgikassa maggassa).
SN 22.101


What is ("right") dwelling in satipaṭṭhāna?
Move in your own resort, bhikkhus, in your own ancestral domain. Mara will not gain access to those who move in their own resort, in their own ancestral domain; Mara will not get a hold on them.
“And what is a bhikkhu’s resort, his own ancestral domain? It is the four establishments of mindfulness.
Gocare, bhikkhave, caratha sake pettike visaye. Gocare, bhikkhave, carataṃ sake pettike visaye na lacchati māro otāraṃ, na lacchati māro ārammaṇaṃ. Ko ca, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno gocaro sako pettiko visayo? Yadidaṃ—cattāro satipaṭṭhānā.
SN 47.6

Cf. also SN 47.8 (own mind).

When, Uttiya, based upon virtue, established upon virtue, you develop these four establishments of mindfulness in such a way, you will go beyond the realm of Death.
SN 47.16


What are the origination and cessation of the four satipaṭṭhāna?
Body > nutriment
Feeling > contact
Mind > Name & form
Phenomena > producing with the mind/mano (manasikāra).
SN 47.42


---
Happy new year to all of you.
Mudita.
----
Edited (3) to add link to AN.4.69 (SA 875–876) - Padhāna Sutta (four strivings).
Last edited by ToVincent on Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
Just as a chunk of salt, cast in water, loses its form and keeps only its taste; so does one who deals with the deathless loses himself in that reality.
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Dmytro
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby Dmytro » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:02 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Dmytro wrote:"earliest and hence"

Does that necessarily makes it more reliable!?!


Yes.

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby Dmytro » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:15 pm

CecilN wrote:This attitude results in ineffective & 'yogic' practise. This is only a beginner's level of practice. It will not lead far.


Hmmm... Seems like all this has to be explained in a form which would be easy to apply in practice.
Otherwise people, not being able to apply it properly, can't comprehend it.
I'm working on this.

For now, I can recommend Anapanasati chapter of Vimuttimagga - especially page 159:
https://archive.org/stream/ArahantUpato ... 1/mode/2up

and the works of Acharn Lee Dhammadharo:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby ToVincent » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:19 pm

Let's resume:

We have seen that grammatically speaking, it is feasible that Pa might, in fine compositi, be the adjective base of pa: guarding, protecting. ( http://sanskrit.inria.fr/MW/145.html#paf3 )

In Sanskrit, "king" is spelled "nṛpa" [«who protect men»].
We find such occurence in pali with janādhipa (a king [of men] - lit: protecting (pa) living creatures (janā) with wisdom (dhi)).
A woman child, 0 king, may prove
Even a better offspring than a male
Itthīpi hi ekacciyā,
seyyā posa janādhipa
SN 3.16


Satipa = protecting sati.

"Ṭhāna": (present participle); drawn from tiṭṭhati (√ṭhā ) - Skt.: sthā:
Standing, remaining, staying, abiding.

So a quite plausible definition of satipaṭṭhāna might be the following:

Satipaṭṭhāna = Standing (abiding,) protecting the recollection of the Teaching (Dhamma).

Yes/no ? - If no, specific reference(s) (book/page/extract, etc.,) from the pundits of grammar would be greatly appreciated (and even required).
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
Just as a chunk of salt, cast in water, loses its form and keeps only its taste; so does one who deals with the deathless loses himself in that reality.
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby ToVincent » Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:53 pm

I have one more question about satipaṭṭhāna.
Why MN 10 is called satipaṭṭhāna, if satipaṭṭhāna does not include the "Fulfilling of the seven factors of enlightenment"?

SN 47.24 definition of satipaṭṭhāna is clear about the four satipaṭṭhānas - the four ways to protect (preserve) the recollection of the Teaching.
It is about "dwelling" (cf. viharati) "contemplating" (cf. anupassi) the body in the body (feelings in feelings, mind in mind, and phenomena in phenomena,) ardent, discerning, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world.
"Mindful" here meaning (also) guarding the six internal spheres of senses" as in SN 35.245 ( https://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.245/15 ) - Indeed two "guardings": the means to guard/preserve sati (the recollection) [aka satipaṭṭhāna]; and guarding the senses with sati [aka sati itself].
There is no mention of the seven factors of enlightenment.
Moreover, SN 54.13 (major sutta,) in its introduction is pretty clear about the difference between each process.
Concentration by mindfulness of breathing, kanda, is the one thing which, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation.


Does this shows again the (late) compounding nature of the Majhima?
When did MN 10 got called Satipaṭṭhāna?

Mudita
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
Just as a chunk of salt, cast in water, loses its form and keeps only its taste; so does one who deals with the deathless loses himself in that reality.
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby Dmytro » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:12 am

Hi,

ToVincent wrote:Why MN 10 is called satipaṭṭhāna, if satipaṭṭhāna does not include the "Fulfilling of the seven factors of enlightenment"?


Why do you think that satipaṭṭhāna does not include the "Fulfilling of the seven factors of enlightenment"?

Concentration by mindfulness of breathing, kanda, is the one thing which, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation.


Thank you for the quote.

There's one more passage where Master Gotama says that satipatthana practice fulfils the seven factors of Comprehension:

“But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment?”

“The four establishments of mindfulness, Kuṇḍaliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn46.6


This is also described in Anapanasati sutta:

"And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Metta

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby ToVincent » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:03 pm

Dmytro wrote:Why do you think that satipaṭṭhāna does not include the "Fulfilling of the seven factors of enlightenment"?

Hi,

I will again take the SN 54.13 extract:
Concentration by mindfulness of breathing, kanda, is the one thing which, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation.
Ānāpānasatisamādhi kho ānanda, eko dhammo bhāvito bahulīkato cattāro satipaṭṭhāne paripūreti. Cattāro satipaṭṭhānā bhāvitā bahulīkatā satta bojjhaṅge paripūrenti. Satta bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā bahulikatā vijjāvimuttiṃ paripūrenti.


There are three processes involved in the following order:
- Ānāpānasatisamādhi
- Satipaṭṭhānā
- Bojjhaṅgā

Each process is the cause (paripūrenti = causative form of paripūrati,) that helps to "fully satisfy" the next one.
Obviously, Ānāpānasatisamādhi is intricately woven with satipaṭṭhana. And so is satipaṭṭhana and the sambojjhaṅge.
Indeed, at the end of the ānāpānasatisamādhi per se, it is said:
"It is, Ananda, when concentration by mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated (pursued) in this way that it fulfils (brings to culmination) the four establishments of mindfulness (Bodhi).
Meaning that ānāpānasatisamādhi is a fairly good "cause" for satipaṭṭhāna. Ānāpānasatisamādhi, by its development and cultivation helps to "fully satisfy" satipaṭṭhāna (the recollection of the Teaching).
In other words, the concentration on the recollection of the breath (ānāpānasatisamādhi,) brings the preservation of the recollection of the Teaching (satipaṭṭhāna) [viz. dwelling contemplating the body in the body, (feelings..., mind..., phenomena....), as defined in SN 47.24 above. - (Teaching that is also extended in parallel, as summarized in part, in the SN 22.101 extract above)].
At the end of the ānāpānasatisamādhi/satipaṭṭhāna process, satipaṭṭhāna is brought to completion.

The next process is the satipaṭṭhāna/sambojjhaṅge process.
However, it is only the development (cf. bhāvitā) and cultivation (cf. bahulīkatā) of the seven sambojjhaṅge that are concerned with the fulfilment of the seven factors of enlightenment (satta sambojjhaṅge). Not satipaṭṭhāna per se.
Satipaṭṭhāna has already been fulfilled.
This is how the four frames of reference are developed & pursued (cultivated), so as to bring the seven factors for Awakening (enlightenment) to their culmination.

In this process, you just have to dwell (viharati) in each of the four frames respectively (body, feeling, mind and phenomena). What you have to develop are the sambojjhaṅge; not the satipaṭṭhāna anymore.
In other words, when it is said that "the four frames of reference are developed & pursued (cultivated)", it means that what is developed, is what is developed inside of them.
That is to say: inside of sati of the body (satisambojjhaṅga in the body); dhammavicaya of the body (dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgo in the body);... etc.
The same with feeling, mind and phenomena.
For instance, the development and completion of the Enlightenment factor of
Mindfulness, when dwelling in the body frame (satipaṭṭhāna-body-frame,) is the following:
The monk abides in the body in & of itself. His mindfulness is present (upaṭṭhitā) & not forgetful (asamuṭṭhā).
Whenever Ananda, this mindfulness is present & not forgetful, the mindfulness as a factor of enlightenment is firm (āraddho).
Mindfulness as a factor of enlightnment is developed.
Mindfulness as a factor of enlightnment increases to completion.
Dwelling thus in mindfulness, he discriminates (vicinati) the phenomena/dhamma with discernment, represents it in concrete term (vicarati), and engages into investigating it (parivīmaṃsamāpajjati).

As you can see, satipatṭṭhāna per se, is not developed. Only the Enlightenment factor of
Mindfulness is developed and brought to completion, within the frame of the body.
The frame is already fulfilled. You investigate the enlightenment factor (e.g. energy,) in relation with what is just fulfilled (e.g. body). What you discriminate (cf. vicinati,) with discernment (pañña,) is in relation with the body, in this instance.
Idem for feeling, citta and dhamma.

The development of the enlightenment factor is really something apart from satipaṭṭhana. Even if you have to dwell in each of satipaṭṭhāna's frame; and refer to them.
You refer to them; but you don't develop them. You don't fulfill satipaṭṭhāna anymore - You only fulfill the enlightenment factors (within; and in reference to each frame of satipaṭṭhāna).
Just a matter of nuance.

I would not even call MN 118 the Anapanasati Sutta; but the Ānāpānasatisamādhisatipaṭṭhanasambojjhaṅga Sutta.

As far as MN 10 is concerned, you don't even have to dwell in each of the frames, to develop (in each) every enlightnment factors.
You simply consider the sambojjhaṅge as "phenomena"; as one of the four frames by itself.
This is ludicrous.
You are not developing or fulfilling anything in each frame. You just discern (cf.pajanati) in one frame only (viz. the phenomena/dhamma frame); out of nowhere - from no training (ck. sikkati*).
Sikkhati (Sanskrit śikṣati - inflected form - शक् śak) is a desiderative verb that has the underlying meaning of "desiring to be able to". It is about training, with the "desire to be able to".
You are seeing things (mindfulness, energy, etc.,) that have not even been developed and trained on.
Sounds like putting the cart before the ox to me.

Pretty hmmm!, all this MN 10 stuff.

I find SN 54.13 with its full parallel, much more convincing. Much more complete. Much more straightforward and logical.

Mudita
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
Just as a chunk of salt, cast in water, loses its form and keeps only its taste; so does one who deals with the deathless loses himself in that reality.
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Dmytro
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby Dmytro » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:03 am

Hi,

ToVincent wrote:Obviously, Ānāpānasatisamādhi is intricately woven with satipaṭṭhana. And so is satipaṭṭhana and the sambojjhaṅge.


Yes. Factors of Comprehension (bojjhanga) are developed during Satipatthana practice (including Anapanasati). See other suttas on Satipatthana practice, especially Bhikkhunupassaya:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 656#p88181

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby ToVincent » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:29 am

Hi,
Dmytro wrote:Yes. Factors of Comprehension (bojjhanga) are developed during Satipatthana practice (including Anapanasati). See other suttas on Satipatthana practice, especially Bhikkhunupassaya:
Yeah, yeah! - But, once again, the most important thing is that the factors of enlightenment/comprehension have to be experimented in each frame (namely in body, in feeling, in mind and in phenomena). And not, like MN 10 pretends, in the last frame (viz. phenomena) - [making the bojjhange almost "the" phenomena (*)].
(*) Related note on the side:
Some people seem to have a hard time defining phenomena/Dhamma.
- You have Body (defined as breath in SN 54.10 - the yoniso [origin] of the frames).
- You have Feeling (that is defined in SN 54.10 as a "mind-made" (manasikāraṃ) breathing in and breathing out).
- You have Mind (citta) that is concerned with the perception (sañña] of that feeling.
- And finally you have the Dhamma/Phenomena, that is the mixing/producing of it all, with thought (vitakka), etc. added. As SN 47.42 puts it: "with the origination of 'the production (application) of the mind' (manasikāra,) there is the origination of phenomena".
Additional note, on the side:
Another important thing is to take refuge in each of these frames made from a mano-breath. For this is neither the "by/in That" of the external influences; nor the "beyond" of the breath in the saṅkhāra nidāna in paṭiccasamuppāda. It is transcendental.
Indeed what you do, while dwelling in the different frames, is that you are constantly drawing your breath from the origin, (viz. an assāsapassāsā from saṅkhāra nidāna;) - a pure breath / although you are doing it as a "mind-made (manasikāraṃ) breathing (ānāpāna). You are manasikar(izing) from the origin (yoniso).
You are transcending.
This kind of dwelling puts you beyond the influence of Mara; for this feeling can only be pleasant (sila required, though).
This is how to dwell in satipaṭṭhāna.


----

Moreover, I would understand that MN 10 be a sutta for the accomplished meditator who would have already trained (cf. Sikkhati), and fulfilled the four frames of satipaṭṭhāna - and that wanted to dwell in each frames of satipaṭṭhāna before proceding further.
A kind of a reminder that the recollection of the Teaching is, before all thing, the dwelling in, and contemplation of the four frames.
That would have been possible.
In other words, the meditator would say to himself: "I have already discerned (cf.pajanati), trained (cf. sikkhati) and fulfilled the four frames, through ānapanasatisamadhi and all. And now I just read this sutta as a "brush-up"."

But the fact that MN 10 put the bojjhange in the last frame, (and only in the last frame), makes MN 10 a pretty dubious Sutta.
The bojjhange have to be fulfilled within each frame. Not just one.

Mudita.
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
Just as a chunk of salt, cast in water, loses its form and keeps only its taste; so does one who deals with the deathless loses himself in that reality.
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby ToVincent » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:02 pm

Dmytro wrote:Yes. Factors of Comprehension (bojjhanga) are developed during Satipatthana practice (including Anapanasati). See other suttas on Satipatthana practice, especially Bhikkhunupassaya.
I don't really catch the relationship between the Bhikkhunupassaya sutta and the bojjhange.
SN 47.12 would have been a better reference.
However, the Bhikkhunupassaya sutta has a quite interesting point of view on the four "abindings to preserve the recollection of the Teaching" (literally, satipaṭṭhāna = abinding, preserving the recollection of the Teaching - [my take]).

Mindfulness/sati (aka "the recollection of the Teaching") is defined in SN 35.245 as the gate keeper of the six internal spheres of senses (ajjhatikāni āyatanāni), keeping out unwholesome states/dhammas.

A good satipaṭṭhāna ("dwelling preserving the Teaching", for short), has requisites, as stated in the Noble Path and elswhere.
Namely sila/virtue (SN 47.15 ); among other things.
Interesting among these other things, are the four right strivings (efforts - sammappadhānāna). These are:
The effort to restrain,
The effort to abandon,
The effort to make-become,
The effort to preserve.

Sati and satipaṭṭhāna are dealing with these. And the Bhikkhunupassaya sutta is concerned with making efforts to "abandon" and "make-become".

The refuge (sarāṇa) that is the Teaching/Dhamma, is considered as being in yourself.
Manasikar(ising) the good [producing/causing the bad to be replaced by the good, with the mind/mano,] is the escape from the akusala dhammas. Directing the mind, manasika(ising) it, towards some inspiring sign/attribute (pasādanīya nimitta) is the way to abandon the akusala dhamma; and make-become and preserve the good Dhamma.
It is also the best way to keep Evil at bay, and remain in our own ancestral domain (SN 47.6).

In other words, unconnect with discernment (cf. sampajāno > pañña) and with mindfulness (sati as a gate-keeper), from the akusala dhammas; and (make-become and) preserve the kusala Dhamma.
Switch from the external to the internal. For the internal has for origin (yoniso) the breath (assāsapassāsā/anapana) that is good.
This is, I suppose, the way on how to dwell preserving the recollection of the Teaching (satipaṭṭhāna) ; as far as this recollection can be taken to.
Each frame must be entered upon, and dwelled into, in this state of mind (citta & mano).

My take.

As the tortoise draws into his shell
Each limb, the monk, withdrawn, with mind applied,
Unattached, and doing harm to none,
Passions wholly stilled, dwells disputing with no one.
Kummova aṅgāni sake kapāle,
Samodahaṃ bhikkhu manovitakke;
Anissito aññamaheṭhayāno,
Parinibbuto nūpavadeyya kañcī”ti.
SN 1.17

Mudita
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
Just as a chunk of salt, cast in water, loses its form and keeps only its taste; so does one who deals with the deathless loses himself in that reality.
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby Dmytro » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:02 pm

Thank you for the post!

Metta

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Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby ToVincent » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:55 pm

Satipaṭṭhāna and the faculty of mindfulness:

And where, bhikkhus, is the faculty of mindfulness to be seen?
The faculty of mindfulness is to be seen here in the four establishments of mindfulness (viz. the four dwellings, guarding the recollection of the Dhamma).
Kattha ca, bhikkhave, satindriyaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ?
Catūsu satipaṭṭhānesu — ettha satindriyaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ.
SN 48.8


"And what, bhikkhus, is the faculty of mindfulness?
Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple is mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and discretion, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said long ago. This is called the faculty of mindfulness. (Bodhi)
---
And what is the faculty of mindfulness?
There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. (Thanissaro)

Katamañca, bhikkhave, satindriyaṃ?
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako satimā hoti paramena satinepakkena samannāgato cirakatampi cirabhāsitampi saritā anussaritā — idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, satindriyaṃ.
SN 48.9


"It is indeed to be expected, venerable sir, that a noble disciple who has faith and whose energy is aroused will be mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and discretion, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said long ago. That mindfulness of his, venerable sir, is his faculty of mindfulness.
"It is indeed to be expected, venerable sir, that a noble disciple who has faith, whose energy is aroused, and whose mindfulness is established, will gain concentration, will gain one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object.
SN 48.50


A note on satinepakkena in SN 48.9:

The PTS has for definition of nepakka: [fr.nipaka] prudence,discrimination,carefulness - [from Sanskrit nipa].

In the Monier-Williams:

do a ctrl-s on:
निपा [ nipā ] [ ni-√ pā:2 ] P. [ -pāti ]
in this page: http://sanskrit.inria.fr/MW/139.html#nipaa

You should have the following definitions:

निपा [ nipā ] to guard or protect from (abl.) ; to observe , watch over, to protect , guard , govern.

निप [ nipa ] [ ni-pa ] m. f. n. protecting.
[ nipa ] m. a lord , chief.

निपक [ nipaka ] intelligent , wise ( cf. Pāli)
[ nipaka ] chief

निपान [ nipāna ] n. place of refuge.

Conclusion:
We are still dealing with the √pa root meaning "guarding", [when affixed; like in the case of the likely "satipa" - and in this case] __ (see previous post and links, on the possibility of satipa, meaning "guarding sati" [in the compound satipa-ṭṭhāna - viz. "dwelling guarding sati" (sati as the recollection of the Teaching/Dhamma)] - or read this summary: https://justpaste.it/1296i.


Mudita
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
Just as a chunk of salt, cast in water, loses its form and keeps only its taste; so does one who deals with the deathless loses himself in that reality.
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

alfred keoy
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:44 am

Re: Pali Term: Satipaṭṭhāna

Postby alfred keoy » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:08 am

Satipaṭṭhāna = sati + upaṭṭhāna . upaṭṭhāna= upa(prefix) + ṭhāna(place). upa=near, towards, next to.
Satipaṭṭhāna means: place your mindfulness closely to any of the four frame (such as kāyānupassi, vedanānupassi, etc)

kāyānupassi = kāya + anupassi. anupassi = anu + passi (saw -past tense). anu(prefix) = towards.
anupassi= observed or comtemplated.
kāyānupassi = comtemplate or observe change in the body (the breath is consider as kāya).

sukhi hontu


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