Commentary on SN12.20 (Paccayasutta)

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Commentary on SN12.20 (Paccayasutta)

Post by Coëmgenu »

theY wrote:I edited your translated text:
Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā.
whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element(=cause) still persists, the stableness-cause (cause of dhamma being) of the Dhamma(=result), the adjudger of the Dhamma (result will being or not is up to cause), specific conditionality.
Commentary of Paccayasutta wrote:uppādā vā tathāgatānanti tathāgatānaṃ uppādepi, buddhesu uppannesu anuppannesupi jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ, jātiyeva jarāmaraṇassa paccayoฯ ṭhitāva sā dhātūti ṭhitova so paccayasabhāvo, na kadāci jāti jarāmaraṇassa paccayo na hotiฯ dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatāti imehipi dvīhi paccayameva kathetiฯ paccayena hi paccayuppannā dhammā tiṭṭhanti, tasmā paccayova dhammaṭṭhitatāti vuccatiฯ paccayo dhamme niyameti, tasmā dhammaniyāmatāti vuccatiฯ idappaccayatāti imesaṃ jarāmaraṇādīnaṃ paccayā idappaccayā, idappaccayāva idappaccayatāฯ tanti taṃ paccayaṃฯ
ftp://ftp1.puremind.org.tw/01%20%E5%8D% ... 2a-13.html
Translation:

uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ="From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death" always going on. No matter what happens, nether universe having this buddha and another buddhas, nor don't having.
ṭhitāva sā dhātu=Cause (paccaya of paccayasamuppanna [result]) still be cause. No time, that birth will not be as a requisite condition of aging & death.
Cause is meaning, of this both words (paccaya): "dhammaṭṭhitatā (cause of result's being) dhammaniyāmatā (adjudger of result's being)". Because paccayuppannadhamma (result) stable (=being) by paccaya (cause), so buddha call paccaya (cause) as "dhammaṭṭhitatā". Because cause [paccaya] adjudge [being of] result (paccayuppanna), so buddha call paccaya (cause) as dhammaniyāmatā.
idappaccayatā=cause(paccaya) of this(=ida=imesaṃ) aging & death. Paccayatā is synonym of paccaya.
taṃ=that paccaya.

Clear! commentary still be the best way to access tipitaka :thumbsup:
So the specific dhātu referred to is paccaya itself? I'm not the most familiar with the linguistic presentation of your commentary translation but it is nice to see commentary in English, I generally find the traditional commentaries hard to come by.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
theY
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Re: Commentary on SN12.20 (Paccayasutta)

Post by theY »

Coëmgenu wrote:
theY wrote:I edited your translated text:
Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā.
whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element(=cause) still persists, the stableness-cause (cause of dhamma being) of the Dhamma(=result), the adjudger of the Dhamma (result will being or not is up to cause), specific conditionality.
Commentary of Paccayasutta wrote:uppādā vā tathāgatānanti tathāgatānaṃ uppādepi, buddhesu uppannesu anuppannesupi jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ, jātiyeva jarāmaraṇassa paccayoฯ ṭhitāva sā dhātūti ṭhitova so paccayasabhāvo, na kadāci jāti jarāmaraṇassa paccayo na hotiฯ dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatāti imehipi dvīhi paccayameva kathetiฯ paccayena hi paccayuppannā dhammā tiṭṭhanti, tasmā paccayova dhammaṭṭhitatāti vuccatiฯ paccayo dhamme niyameti, tasmā dhammaniyāmatāti vuccatiฯ idappaccayatāti imesaṃ jarāmaraṇādīnaṃ paccayā idappaccayā, idappaccayāva idappaccayatāฯ tanti taṃ paccayaṃฯ
ftp://ftp1.puremind.org.tw/01%20%E5%8D% ... 2a-13.html
Translation:

uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ="From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death" always going on. No matter what happens, nether universe having this buddha and another buddhas, nor don't having.
ṭhitāva sā dhātu=Cause (paccaya of paccayasamuppanna [result]) still be cause. No time, that birth will not be as a requisite condition of aging & death.
Cause is meaning, of this both words (paccaya): "dhammaṭṭhitatā (cause of result's being) dhammaniyāmatā (adjudger of result's being)". Because paccayuppannadhamma (result) stable (=being) by paccaya (cause), so buddha call paccaya (cause) as "dhammaṭṭhitatā". Because cause [paccaya] adjudge [being of] result (paccayuppanna), so buddha call paccaya (cause) as dhammaniyāmatā.
idappaccayatā=cause(paccaya) of this(=ida=imesaṃ) aging & death. Paccayatā is synonym of paccaya.
taṃ=that paccaya.

Clear! commentary still be the best way to access tipitaka :thumbsup:
So the specific dhātu referred to is paccaya itself? I'm not the most familiar with the linguistic presentation of your commentary translation but it is nice to see commentary in English, I generally find the traditional commentaries hard to come by.
"Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ" = adjective of "dhātu".

"dhātu" = "attano sabhāvaṃ dhārentīti dhātuyoฯ (definition of dhātu is 'thing keep it's own condition[causes and result]. So in this sutta, dhatu refer to 'cause[paccaya]', because it keep it own 'result[paccayasamuppanna]')"

"sa dhātu"="sa paticca" because paticca keep it own paccayasamuppanna.

Example: 'birth' keep it own 'aging & death'. Have not 'birth', have not 'aging & death'.

So buddha said "ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. "

Bold is cause(paticca). Underline is result (paticcasamuppanna).

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However youcan ask me all the time. I will try to answer as I can.

Theravada start to learn with memorizing. If you just read, it is absolutely not enough trying to understand theravada-tipitaka.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
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