Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
atipattoh
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by atipattoh » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:41 am

In which part of the post that i stated sound is a better choice and not noise.
Is it my english so terrible that you are unable to catch what my point is or you choose not to see?

Let me state a more straight forward remark:
'Sound/noise as a thorn to/in first jhana' would be unnecessary in the sutta, if not to serve its purpose as a warning.
If it is beneficial to all, i would have said what is the nature of the noise. Normal sound/noise does not cause problem and jhana is still attainable; and within jhana sound is not heard. So obstacle/hindrances does not apply, in the practical sense, as long as it is not taken as an object at the stage of upacara samadhi.

atipattoh
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by atipattoh » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:42 am

Is there really such thing as sutta jhana and VM jhana?
The question on so call 'sutta jhana' that i don't seems to be able to make sense of; and it is intriguing that the interpretation of the word 'thorn' which is a metaphor to be taken as, 'hindrance'/obstacle/nuisance/bother can survives, when you look at the regression process of Jhana 4 to Jhana 1, how does the precess being understood if it were to survive?

A fool from HK
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by A fool from HK » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:32 am

Last month I attended a dhamma talk with Ajahn Sujato and Ajahn Bramali as the speakers in HK. After the talk I asked Ajahn Sujato if there is any sutta reference about not hearing any sound in Jhana. I didn't totally catch his words (because of my poor English), but his main point was about the 5th jhana factor, ekaggata, already imply that one will not hear sound in jhana. Becasue form, sound, taste, small and touch are always changing, hence the corresponding consciousness is also changing. And one cannot satisfy the 5th factor with the changing consciousness.

SarathW
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:37 am

I do not hear sound even when I read a book.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Buddha Vacana
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:32 am

SarathW wrote:I do not hear sound even when I read a book.
There you've got your ekaggata!

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Mkoll
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Mkoll » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:50 am

SarathW wrote:I do not hear sound even when I read a book.
You're still hearing sound, but you're not noticing it because you're engrossed in your book and not paying attention to the background auditory stimuli. It's a form of neural adaptation/habituation. If a sufficiently different and intense auditory stimulus went off near you, say an airhorn, you can bet your butt you'd hear it.

The question here is whether the person in jhana would hear it. My impression is that it depends on what definition of "jhana" we're using.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

SarathW
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:39 am

If a sufficiently different and intense auditory stimulus went off near you, say an airhorn, you can bet your butt you'd hear it.
I think this will be applicable to Buddhist Jhana too.
However I am not sure how this will work for a person in Nirodha Samapatthi as they do not have thoughts.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:41 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:
SarathW wrote:I do not hear sound even when I read a book.
There you've got your ekaggata!
Yes that may not be the right kaggata. (as per Jhana formula)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Buddha Vacana
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:05 am

SarathW wrote:Yes that may not be the right kaggata. (as per Jhana formula)
There is no ekaggata in the jhana formula.

Also, in the suttas, ekaggata and its derivatives don't have such a narrow meaning as in the Vsm and as many teach it:

AN 5.151: one should be ekaggacitta while listening to a Dhamma talk
suṇanto saddhammaṃ ... avikkhittacitto dhammaṃ suṇāti ekaggacitto yoniso ca manasi karoti.

while listening to the good Dhamma ... one listens to the Dhamma with an undistracted and one-pointed mind; one attends to it appropriately.
AN 4.12: one should have cittaṃ ekaggaṃ while walking:
“carato cepi ... samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ, carampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ... samitaṃ āraddhavīriyo pahitatto’ti vuccati

if while walking ... his mind is concentrated and one-pointed, then that bhikkhu is said to be ... continuously energetic and resolute while walking.
So it seems that meaning would also apply in the case of your reading a book.

SarathW
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:27 am

So it seems that meaning would also apply in the case of your reading a book.
Yes if you are reading a Dhamma book it will be right concentration.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by SarathW » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:34 am

Good sutta.

"That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will have developed faculties, and a deaf person will have developed faculties, according to the words of the brahman Parasiri. For a blind person does not see forms with the eye, and a deaf person does not hear sounds with the ear."



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

form
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by form » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:16 am

This is the most interesting thread I ever read in this forum. Something I pondered over for years and still have no clear answer.

I would think one of the characteristics of jhanas aside from levels, is stability. So unless one is highly trained, the tendency to slip off is highly likely. The skill of emerging from jhana is another one of the four jhanic skills mentioned in the Nikaya.

I personally consider entering the jhanas as one's consciousness entering the more secluded part of the mind, deeper and deeper into unconscious gradually as the level progress. At that level, language tendency is minimal, probably non existent. Insights appeared in a non language form when one emerge from a jhana. Stepping down from a higher to a lower jhana appears to have some benefits in term of stability for the lower jhana. There is also calming benefits that last for a while after proper meditation. So it is hard to tell if it is jhana or not.

netlava
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by netlava » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:56 am

The Mahaparinibbana sutta discusses this topic at length. An excerpt from the sutta:
“Then, Pukkusa, this thought occurred to him, ‘How wonderful it is, and marvellous, that those gone forth should pass their time in a state of mind so calm that though conscious and awake they neither see nor hear torrential rain beating and splashing, and lightning flashing, and thunder crashing.’ After expressing his deep faith in me, and paying homage, he departed.”
Also, poem Sirivaddha (Thag 1.41) from the Theragatha describes how lightning can't shake one in jhana:
Lightning lands on the cleft
between Vebhara & Pandava,
  • but,
having gone to the cleft in the mountains,
he's absorbed in jhana — the son
  • of the one without compare,
    the one who is Such.

LuminousBliss
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by LuminousBliss » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:22 pm

No, it's definitely not possible to hear any sound in Jhana.

Before absorption you still might be aware of some sounds, but you are not getting distracted by them and they sound really far away.
In jhana you are cut of from the external world.
Experience Real Jhana Absorption
http://www.jhanabliss.com

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Dmytro
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Dmytro » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:58 pm

There's an excellent article by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

Silence Isn’t Mandatory
SENSORY PERCEPTION IN THE JHĀNAS

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... datory.pdf

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