Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

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Lombardi4
Posts: 1551
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 pm

Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Lombardi4 »

We can learn so much from Pain. If we only dare look him in the eye and listen to what he whispers into our hearts. Rather than desperately try to run away from him.

Pain, too hurts. Why don't we have empathy for the fellow and give him a good long hug?

Aww, there you go, Pain, it'll be alright <3

Funny thing happens, Pain transforms into Joy. Because Pain felt loved!

And she -- Joy -- boy is she beautiful!



-Stephen Karakashev during moments of unfathomable inspiration
Manchester, UK
sometime between 11pm and midnight, 15.12.2016

OK, and s/he just had a sex reassignment surgery.
Like · Reply · 44 mins · Edited
Stefan Karakashev
Stefan Karakashev I almost cried at my own words just now.

My original intention was to write just the first two sentences. Where do I get this inspiration from?

Wait, I know. From my best friends Pain and Joy. Love you guys! <3

Like · Reply · 33 mins · Edited
Stefan Karakashev
Stefan Karakashev What a weird 35 days. What is going on in me? No idea. Oh wait! My constant companions - the lovely boy and girl.
Like · Reply · 31 mins
Stefan Karakashev
Stefan Karakashev OK. Pain's father is called Anger. And Joy's mother is called Love.
Like · Reply · 30 mins
Stefan Karakashev
Stefan Karakashev And to be a little less sexist towards the male gender... Pain's mother is called Delusion. And Joy's father is called Wisdom.
Like · Reply · 29 mins
Stefan Karakashev
Stefan Karakashev Pain is such an adorable little boy. Why run away from him? Alas, he, neglected, abused, is constantly looking for company. And yet, everybody hates him! My heart is about to burst. Poor young little beautiful boy.

Imagine you being that boy. Even if you happen to be a girl. Would you want everyone to run away from you? So why are we all running away from Pain?

Love that boy. <3 He means no harm. It's who he is. He himself is hurting. Hug him. Feed him. Welcome him home. Poor young boy. Bathe him. Tell him you're sorry. Then sing him a lullaby as he goes to sleep.

And then, he, feeling loved, wakes up at Dawn, as a beautiful young girl named Joy!

Oh dear. (How do I type a crying emoticon here?)

Like · Reply · 24 mins
Stefan Karakashev
Stefan Karakashev Guys, please Love Pain. And also Love Joy. Both are such adorable young kids. Why do you want just Joy? This is just so wrong.
Like · Reply · 20 mins
Stefan Karakashev
Stefan Karakashev And look, blame Pain's parents that he is like that - not him! Blame Anger and Delusion!
Like · Reply · 19 mins
Stefan Karakashev
Stefan Karakashev OK, I'm out. I need to get Pain to bed. What a kid! He's taught me all this! If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't be the man that I am, writing all this inspirational stuff.

Come Pain, off we go to bed my boy. Tomorrow, at Dawn, we will wake up with Joy!

<3
Last edited by Lombardi4 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
perkele
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by perkele »

I think you are going a bit over board with your personifications here in a too silly way.
Reminds me of another friend who told me recently "dukkha is my friend", and explained to me why. And yes, he had some sense in what he meant.
But this is some really silly figurative thinking. No it is not true. Dukkha is not my friend. Not anyobodys friend. Dukkha itself does not "hurt". Dukkha is a fact. Dukkha is reality. And it is quite pervasive and universal, it is what all beings have their share in and therefore maybe a basis for compassion and all kind of kinship, but at the same time transient and changeable, and impermanent. There is a way out of it. That is important. No need to hug it - it is not a good thing, which might lead one close to wallow in it.

If I would want to try and put the thoughts of my friend that I mentioned in my own words, and be a bit figurative with it in my own way, then I would say the opposite maybe: Dukkha is your enemy. It is good to know your enemy. Know your enemy very closely, know his every way. And you may come out safe. You may find release from him some day, that he can no more touch you.

But maybe it is all just a matter of language. One should not be too figurative in many ways I think. Or one may end up very confused. Like a drunk poet.
Lombardi4
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Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 pm

Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Lombardi4 »

perkele wrote:I think you are going a bit over board with your personifications here in a too silly way.
Reminds me of another friend who told me recently "dukkha is my friend", and explained to me why. And yes, he had some sense in what he meant.
But this is some really silly figurative thinking. No it is not true. Dukkha is not my friend. Not anyobodys friend. Dukkha itself does not "hurt". Dukkha is a fact. Dukkha is reality. And it is quite pervasive and universal, it is what all beings have their share in and therefore maybe a basis for compassion and all kind of kinship, but at the same time transient and changeable, and impermanent. There is a way out of it. That is important. No need to hug it - it is not a good thing, which might lead one close to wallow in it.

If I would want to try and put the thoughts of my friend that I mentioned in my own words, and be a bit figurative with it in my own way, then I would say the opposite maybe: Dukkha is your enemy. It is good to know your enemy. Know your enemy very closely, know his every way. And you may come out safe. You may find release from him some day, that he can no more touch you.

But maybe it is all just a matter of language. One should not be too figurative in many ways I think. Or one may end up very confused. Like a drunk poet.

Dear friend,

After your first sentence I stopped reading. Sorry. Have some Heart. Here, take this one: :heart:
Lombardi4
Posts: 1551
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 pm

Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Lombardi4 »

People are the way they are.

Few understand the Heart.

Awww..... guys... I'm giving away so many hearts now, I feel you all need one each, please don't be shy, it is my gift for you all. Unfortunately, I can't type out too many, but the whole Universe and all beings in it need one :heart: right now. Poor, :heart: less Universe.... Awww, I must bring out the best of me and just produce countless hearts to give away to beings. But I will. It's my hurdle. If you've read one of my other posts. But unfortunately, people do not understand. Oh well, when this adorable boy Pain comes along, maybe they will find their Heart...


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... if they find the courage to look him in the eye and lend an ear to what He is trying to whisper into your :heart:
Lombardi4
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Lombardi4 »

I shall not relent! This world needs some serious waking up to and some true loving heart! So, does being different scare people? Maybe it does. But I do not care. I have a duty to do what I believe is right regardless of people's thoughts, words and actions. Few are those who will understand. It's the vast majority who are walking the wrong way. That doesn't make the minority wrong. But anyone is welcome to join us along! (We are recruiting and in desperate need of increasing our numbers so as to stand up to the Massive Delusion going on. I've only just joined by the way. New member. But really, I am of no importance to you. Nor do I want to be. I do not exist. I am anattā. And really, rather than being concerned with me, be concerned with you! Look into your own dish and eat your own food. I've got my own, and mine is of no interest to you. Really.)

:heart:
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LG2V
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by LG2V »

This is stupid. It comes off as trolling. I wish you the best, but there are better ways to cope with pain.
Here are some excellent sites for giving free Dana (Click-Based Donation):
http://freerice.comhttp://greatergood.com/www.ripple.orgwww.thenonprofits.com
perkele
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by perkele »

Sumano wrote:Dear friend,

After your first sentence I stopped reading. Sorry. Have some Heart. Here, take this one: :heart:
Oh, you are way too touchy. There was not even a slight intention to insult you. I was just giving you my thoughts on it in a well-meaning way.
Not reading past one simple sentence that you feel as an insult by your own decision? - how does that jive with your idea of "hugging pain, so that pain feels loved"? :thinking: Sorry that I hurt you. Was not my intent.

I think you are taking pain (dukkha) up the wrong way, not wanting to know it, and where it really comes from - and that it is even nothing personal. I thought the Buddha taught us to know it, so we can be safe. That is just what I tried to explain in my own thought-bubbling way. I would have never thought that you might take it up that way.

So where is your heart apart from these pixels? :heart:


Anyway, I wish you good night. (And don't drink and post! - for your own sake. :o :) )

Be well.
:console: :meditate:
Lombardi4
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Lombardi4 »

LG2V wrote:This is stupid. It comes off as trolling. I wish you the best, but there are better ways to cope with pain.
Lighten up.

See the light side of life.

Don't be so dry.

And be kind. :heart:
Lombardi4
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Lombardi4 »

perkele wrote:
Sumano wrote:Dear friend,

After your first sentence I stopped reading. Sorry. Have some Heart. Here, take this one: :heart:
Oh, you are way too touchy. There was not even a slight intention to insult you. I was just giving you my thoughts on it in a well-meaning way.
Not reading past one simple sentence that you feel as an insult by your own decision? - how does that jive with your idea of "hugging pain, so that pain feels loved"? :thinking: Sorry that I hurt you. Was not my intent.

I think you are taking pain (dukkha) up the wrong way, not wanting to know it, and where it really comes from - and that it is even nothing personal. I thought the Buddha taught us to know it, so we can be safe. That is just what I tried to explain in my own thought-bubbling way. I would have never thought that you might take it up that way.

So where is your heart apart from these pixels? :heart:


Anyway, I wish you good night. (And don't drink and post! - for your own sake. :o :) )

Be well.
:console: :meditate:
You are right. :smile: I should have read the rest :) I just did. Sorry.

OK. What do you think about Ajahn Brahm saying: "Enjoy your depression."? Not that I was depressed a while ago, but I am giving you an example.

Suffering is not your enemy. The causes of suffering are your enemy. If you consider suffering your enemy, you are going to try to destroy it, get rid of it. What happens after that is that you are trying to get rid of the symptom and the causes underlying the problem (ignorance, craving, clinging, greed, hatred, delusion). So, you trying to get rid of your pain (mental, physical, relationship problem, work-related problem) will be counter-productive, because you are addressing the effect and not the cause. That is like the dog chasing the stone. The lion, however, chases not the stone, but the person who threw it.

When you hate your suffering, it grows. You get angry. You get frustrated. You get bitter. And all that anger, frustration, and bitterness grow and grow and your suffering gets even worse. Your suffering being worse, you struggle even harder to get rid of it, and then your suffering becomes EVEN worse. You start going in circles. It is called the negative feedback loop or negative cycle. You get lost in evil leading to suffering causing evil leading to more suffering...............


How do you get out of that? It is simple, but not the easiest thing. What is the cause of your suffering? The bad things you are doing: the negative thoughts, the negative attitudes, the bad kamma that you are doing, the negative reactions. How do you change them? By doing the opposite. So you change your thinking into positive thinking. You start generating wholesome thoughts and states of mind, thoughts of loving-kindness, compassion, thoughts of helping, you get inspired, you see the beauty in the world, you also start doing good things, because a positive mind leads to wholesome actions. You start actually helping people. Holding doors for girls and men with beers (by the way - I do not drink and have not drunk alcohol in many many years, and in all my life I have imbibed less than 15 glasses of alcohol, and I am honest), you start being kind to people, you are honest and you tell the truth, you become more aware and mindful, more energetic, wiser, you start contemplating the Dhamma, you associate with good, wise people, you meditate, you observe the precepts immaculately. The Noble Eightfold Path.

As you do this, you start noticing a change: you become happier. Your face becomes more relaxed, your body more energetic, your mind feels purer, and your voice becomes clearer. You are changing. You become more confident about yourself. You also start seeing people respecting you more. So, all those good things that you did are starting to pay off.

Now, why? You stopped considering suffering your enemy and you realized the cause of suffering was your enemy. When you realized that, you realized that you needed the opposite and that was all the good things opposed to the bad things. And now you are happy.

Cool, isn't it?

It's called Four Truths and Eightfold Path.
Lombardi4
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Lombardi4 »

People seem to have some real problem with people who think differently to what most people think.

Well, get used to it. There are people who choose to act in different ways. That doesn't mean those ways are necessarily wrong.

As long as you don't hurt or harm others in any way, you can do anything your heart desires. Go for it! Then people are bound to get irked, but that is their problem. You act the way you want to, provided you are not harming others. So, go ahead and write 'silly' stuff like what I did on Facebook, and then copied here. What is wrong with that? It was an inspiration about how we should embrace suffering and how embracing it transforms into happiness. Isn't that useful? Try acting upon it before you judge the literary medium that it was expressed by. Maybe it was funny? Maybe it was touchy? Maybe it was a lesson - to treat happiness and suffering as if they are your friends and companions. Are they not? Or do you have only happiness all the time? We all have Pain and Joy. Are you going to hate Pain every time Pain comes? If you hate Pain, will it go away, or will it stay? Because Ajahn Brahm says that the more you want pain to go away, the longer it will stay. But that if you allow pain to be, it goes by itself. So, when I wrote that I had a little pain. I wrote my touchy story, I embraced Pain, and that Pain is now Joy. So, it worked?

I don't mind it anymore. That's how people are. Too serious. Too strict or whatever the word is. Why not be a little bit more unconventional? What is wrong with that? Is it outlawed by the Government and is it against the Five Precepts or the Vinaya? It is just not what most people do. So? Is it wrong? I am independent. I can choose to act in my own ways provided they are within the Rule of Law and within the Moral framework of the Dhamma-Vinaya. So if wise people can see the funny side of that, I am okay. But if most can't, I don't mind. They need to lighten up.

Praise and criticism do not affect me in any way, unless they come from a wise monk or nun, I also heed the advice of other wise people. But most people's? No.

And as I said, why be so concerned about what I do or say? Be concerned about what you yourself are doing or saying. I mean no harm. So be kind. :heart:

But you may want to see the funny side of life (which exists). And you may want to see into the hidden meaning of the words, and the lessons behind them. Is there anything valuable there? About happiness and suffering and about how embracing suffering leads to happiness? Isn't that profound? Isn't that the key to life, what we all want - how to transform suffering into happiness. Think about it. Don't judge people. Don't judge writings before you have attempted to put them into practice.

What people think reality is is actually different from what reality is.

So be unconventional. Because the truth, the real truth, is unconventional to what most people think the truth is. The truth is the norm. But people misperceive the truth. Unfortunately, because the majority of people are mispercieving the truth, they all think that, because the vast majority think the same way, that THAT is the way things are. So they argue with people who disagree with them, saying: "You are wrong. See - all of us 99% of people think the same way, therefore we are all right and you are wrong."

OK.
Lombardi4
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Lombardi4 »

I sometimes feel this forum is a bit dry.

Now, this doesn't mean we should all just joke, but a bit of light-heartedness would give us a bit fresh air. There must be a subtle balance between seriousness and humour.

Saṃsāra is a serious thing. So it requires a serious response. But if you get all too serious about it... guess what, you may end up angry or depressed or heartless. Good to lighten up a bit. The Buddha had a sense of humour. Ajahn Brahm told of a story from the suttas about how a guy wanted to become a monk but his parents wouldn't let him because they want him to marry. So he said that he is very idealistic and wouldn't marry an imperfect girl. So they agreed to look for the perfect girl for him. They found the most beautiful one, being also the best cook, the kindest, the most generous, the most faithful, etc. But in the end, the guy said: "Sorry, but she's not quite perfect. She farts."
Lombardi4
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Lombardi4 »

I must be more succinct from now on. Too long posts.

Learn to see the world as if through a child's eyes.
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Mkoll
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Mkoll »

Hey Stephen,

Take a break, mate. If you have a samatha meditation subject you are good with that calms things down, like the breath, now would be a good time to attend to it. If not or you don't feel up for it, maybe do something you enjoy that takes your mind off things. That's what I'd do, anyway.

Be well and don't bounce around too much.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Lombardi4
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by Lombardi4 »

"We can learn so much from pain. If we only dare look it in the eye and listen to what it whispers into our hearts. Rather than desperately try to run away from it."

I just look at that, and I can't believe how much sense it makes myself. This thing actually works. Why? Because we accept a given situation. When we accept it, then we can work with it. If we fight it by trying to drive it away, it rebels. The boy is a rebel. He is naughty. But if you love him, he calms down. Learn from kids. I've never had kids, but I know a few things.
perkele
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Re: Love Pain. He, too, hurts.

Post by perkele »

Sumano wrote:You are right. :smile: I should have read the rest :) I just did. Sorry.
I accept your apology and thank you for reading my written-down thoughts on your thoughts.

[ --
Just wanting to add though, that you may want to make it clearer in the future when you don't expect or wish for a serious reponse from others (I overlooked the fact that this was posted in "Dhammic stories" which might be a hint. And I also notice that you expanded on and sillyfied your original post after my first response, adding also some visibile self-irony to it; which makes for a whole different context), in other words, if you are only out for some happy trolling.

- And don't make the mistake to take this or the word "trolling" as an insult. I myself am proud to say to be the descendant of a noble lineage of trolls, reaching all the way back to the Alavaka Yakkha.
Despite our bad reputation, and being shunned and rejected by society at large, especially on internet forums nowadays ("don't feed the trolls", they say, repeated like a mantra that reverberates from every corner of the world wide web; they want to starve us, to extinguish us and work for our demise...), us trolls, on the whole, are actually doing a great service to society and follow a strict code of honour - although, there are, and also have been in the past, some exceptions - of yakkhas, who follow a dark and devious path, as evidenced for example in this sutta (It was after this discourse, actually, that our code of honour was established, and has been held up ever since):
Atanatiya Sutta wrote:"Venerable Sir (bhante), there are eminent Yakkhas who are not pleased with the Blessed One, there are also eminent Yakkhas (trolls) pleased with the Blessed One. There are Yakkhas (trolls) of middle rank who are not pleased with the Blessed One, and there are those who are pleased with the Blessed One. There are Yakkhas (trolls) of inferior rank who are not pleased with the Blessed One, and there are those who are pleased with the Blessed One. The Yakkhas (trolls), bhante, as a rule, are not pleased with the Blessed One. What is the reason for this?"

"Well, the Blessed One teaches the Dhamma to establish abstention from killing, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, and from liquor that causes intoxication and negligence. To them such teaching is unpleasant and unpalatable."
-- ]

But since you responded in earnest, I will continue on the topic.
Sumano wrote:OK. What do you think about Ajahn Brahm saying: "Enjoy your depression."?
I don't consider that to be in any way really helpful, actually.
And I don't consider the concept of "depression" to be in any way helpful, actually, for that matter. It just seems such a modern and en vogue thing to "have depression". Making it your own, even getting it certified by a doctor so you can officially hang it around your neck. Instead of just acknowledging ("dry"ly, yes, but it also can be seen deeply) that "there is suffering", which is quite universal, all-pervasive - not yours necessarily. Just an (important) general fact of existence, which, if realized, recognized, acknowledged to its whole extent (the first noble truth) can propel you to find the way out, can inform and inspire the solution to this general problem. But it is a serious problem. It is the universal problem - everyone's problem. It is not a person. It is not a friend whom you can hug and whose presence you enjoy. These figurative ways of thinking, in my opinion, don't contribute in any way to the problem's solution. They contribute only to its cause (ignorance, delusion).

There is no way to enjoy suffering. (Although there is suffering, of course, that comes from yearning for and being attached to certain kinds of enjoyment (sensual pleasures, gross or subtle - and also intellectual.)
Pain is unpleasent by its nature (but that is not the worst or most incisively hooking mode of suffering in general). There may be these natural endorphine reactions when it becomes too much. - And it might be that some thing like that may be the underlying mechanism behind things like sado-masochism (and maybe we are all in some way sado-masochists here, swimming through samsara with its ups and downs, as long as we have not yet attined stream-entry) - But it does not become joy. Joy has different causes than suffering (pain). One has to analyze these things clearly and not get drunk on poetry, to find the way out. That is my opinion.

Of course we all know the relief when a burden has been lifted from us. When a physical ache has finally vanished. Or when some worry has been lifted from our hearts. But that is all very different than to say that this relief was caused by the previous pain.

And these touchy stories - of "loving" and "hugging" "your" pain, so that it miraculously becomes joy - in my opinion are only for people who don't want to address the real issues and instead get hooked on another kind of drug.

But to move on:
Sumano wrote:Suffering is not your enemy. The causes of suffering are your enemy. If you consider suffering your enemy, you are going to try to destroy it, get rid of it. What happens after that is that you are trying to get rid of the symptom and the causes underlying the problem (ignorance, craving, clinging, greed, hatred, delusion). So, you trying to get rid of your pain (mental, physical, relationship problem, work-related problem) will be counter-productive, because you are addressing the effect and not the cause.
I agree that it is better framed like this. To see the causes as the "enemy", if anything. And suffering is just a fact, a truth. Something just there that we should neither love nor hate, but understand - and not personify in any way (in my opinion).

My choice of the word "enemy" was just to set a contrast to "friend" (which a friend of mine who I talked about used - and which I found unfitting - and enemy more fitting, because, really suffering is best avoided, even if it should be closely known and understood).

But I agree of course with this (and which is also probably the jist of what my friend who I referenced here now several times meant to convey):
Sumano wrote:"We can learn so much from pain. If we only dare look it in the eye and listen to what it whispers into our hearts. Rather than desperately try to run away from it."
And I think many people have this problem. They cannot get in touch with their suffering and acknowledge it truthfully in its full terms. I guess we all have this problem to some extent as long as we are not fully awakened.

Maybe, maybe, this metaphorical personification stuff can be a way for some people to get more interested to get in touch with the issues they actually have to actually understand them. But I think for that to help one needs a very special mindest (and it is at first a kind of self-deception). And maybe it is just not the right way for me. People learn differently. :smile:

And just btw. I have no problem with your general attittude and "looking at things differently" etc. And I really like your way of posing questions openly, and speaking your mind in whichever way it comes, and also the topics you raise that inspire good discussion and meaningful thought. And also that you try and bring more uplifting thoughts into people's heads in general. THANK YOU for all that.
But in this case I think it was you who was a bit too intolerant towards other people's snarky disagreement - and OF COUSE MY OPINION IS RIGHT.

Okay. That was enough of serious talk for now. Not wanting to go deeper into this, I have some important yakkha business to attend to. :P

May you always remember the Atanatiya spell for protection from manevolent yakkhas.

:hello:

:anjali:
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