My aspiration over the last couple of years has been to follow the 8 precepts perfectly, but I find it difficult without the support or camaraderie of anyone else. The members of my local sangha (parisa, to be precise) do not seem, for the most part, to be very devoted practitioners (at least, the ones who are the most vocal during meetings). They bash the precepts and some even take personal offense to the suggestion that breaking them is not conducive to serious practice.
Does anyone have any suggestions for practicing the 8 precepts all the time in lay life? Obviously I'm very careful about what media I consume, and the beauty of the precepts is that they force mindfuless since one cannot escape difficult feelings with music, food, etc. But because they run so counter to mainstream society, it'd be great to have a "support group" of sorts. Any suggestions? I try to just read as much dhamma as I can since this helps a lot. And over the years, seeing the negative effects of breaking them and how doing so disturbs blissful states of peace has also been helpful.
Support in following the 8 precepts
Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
Hi Philosopher,
I am pondering these questions as well right now... and, like you, I found that reading the suttas daily helps me a lot!
I feel that I would benefit from being part of a group of persons following the same precepts or practices (eg: uposatha), which is not the case yet.
Regarding music I have no problems not listening to music anymore, but I've never been into it too much anyway so maybe that's why this one was easy. One thing that might help is deleting all the digital music on your computer (if you have some) since this is often illegal downloading - and once the music is not on the computer then it's easier not to be tempted.
It is a bit harder with fictional movies or series but for now I managed to maintain it. Reminding myself how much time I save by not watching stuff helps me a lot I think (it was the same trick that got me out of video games, I spent so much time on that Oo) - I am pleased that I can spend time on more valuable goals such as work, sutta study or family/friends.
I tried not too have food in the evening but I could not manage that one... that's the one I would need help from other people doing the same thing I think. That's a tough one for me.
Good luck with your practice!
Faelig
I am pondering these questions as well right now... and, like you, I found that reading the suttas daily helps me a lot!
I feel that I would benefit from being part of a group of persons following the same precepts or practices (eg: uposatha), which is not the case yet.
Regarding music I have no problems not listening to music anymore, but I've never been into it too much anyway so maybe that's why this one was easy. One thing that might help is deleting all the digital music on your computer (if you have some) since this is often illegal downloading - and once the music is not on the computer then it's easier not to be tempted.
It is a bit harder with fictional movies or series but for now I managed to maintain it. Reminding myself how much time I save by not watching stuff helps me a lot I think (it was the same trick that got me out of video games, I spent so much time on that Oo) - I am pleased that I can spend time on more valuable goals such as work, sutta study or family/friends.
I tried not too have food in the evening but I could not manage that one... that's the one I would need help from other people doing the same thing I think. That's a tough one for me.
Good luck with your practice!
Faelig
- Goofaholix
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Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
Do it while living in a monastery or retreat centre, that's what they're designed for.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
It is possible to practice 8 precepts as lay person all time in his/her life.Does anyone have any suggestions for practicing the 8 precepts all the time in lay life?
If you have a partner then practicing celibacy could be a problem unless your partner support it.
If you do hard labour work you may need some regular sustenance.
Your job may be a hindrance to your practice.
This is the reason why lay people observe eight precepts only once a month in Uposata days.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
In the course of Buddhist history has there ever been an 8 precept community of practitioners?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
I try to follow the eight precepts, but it is difficult. So far, I have done away with music and entertainment as well as beautification. However, eating between sunrise and noon is a challenge for someone who does a lot of physical work and must conform to other people's schedules. I find it best to observe the eight precepts once per week, say, on Sunday. If you can actually follow the Uposatha calendar, that is even better. Overall, I have found that the most practical path for lay people is to observe the five precepts all the time, and the eight precepts on special observance days. That being said, I abstain from things such as music all the time anyway, which I suppose is beneficial to maintaining a peaceful mind.
Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
So long as practising eight precepts does not inconvenience anyone else (for example, if not consuming food after midday leaves someone too tired to work, or care for dependents), then I can't see why ANY layperson should not undertake them, so long as doing so improves their practice of the dhamma. Why not?Goofaholix wrote:Do it while living in a monastery or retreat centre, that's what they're designed for.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
Contemplating and coming to agreement is helpful, contemplating body, contemplating sensuality, contemplating death, studying and remembering helps. Not seeing women,not talking to women helps alot. Not visiting people inclined on breaking those precepts helps alot as well.
Not worrying about breaking precepts helps, so does not building up tension in regards to keeping the precepts. Not giving rise to feelings of exaltation (conceit) because of keeping precepts helps. Reflecting on intentions helps, reflecting on benefits of abstaining helps. Meditation helps, seclusion helps and mindfulness is always helpful. Association with good friends helps.
Not worrying about breaking precepts helps, so does not building up tension in regards to keeping the precepts. Not giving rise to feelings of exaltation (conceit) because of keeping precepts helps. Reflecting on intentions helps, reflecting on benefits of abstaining helps. Meditation helps, seclusion helps and mindfulness is always helpful. Association with good friends helps.
Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
User156079 wrote:Contemplating and coming to agreement is helpful, contemplating body, contemplating sensuality, contemplating death, studying and remembering helps. Not seeing women,not talking to women helps alot. Not visiting people inclined on breaking those precepts helps alot as well.
Not worrying about breaking precepts helps, so does not building up tension in regards to keeping the precepts. Not giving rise to feelings of exaltation (conceit) because of keeping precepts helps. Reflecting on intentions helps, reflecting on benefits of abstaining helps. Meditation helps, seclusion helps and mindfulness is always helpful. Association with good friends helps.
Regarding not seeing women, well as a layman there will be times when that is unavoidable, however I wonder if this: "On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which — if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye — evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him" means, it's not that we must necessarily look away from a woman (since that behaviour could cause offense, if she is simply trying to communicate in an ordinary way with us), but rather, not grasping at / focussing on her attractive features (?) - for example, focus simply on completing the necessary interaction, on her as a human being who, like ourselves, has a body composed of unattractive internal parts, ie keep one's focus of awareness pure as one can. A challenge yes, but as a layman, well this might be more courteous than say, just looking at the floor (i mean, where can one look to avoid seeing them in this situation without appearing odd?) every time a member of the opposite sex has something to say to us? (i'm open to any correction of what I have written, or advice on this issue also).
Sense Restraint
"And how does a monk guard the doors of his senses? On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which — if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye — evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odor with the nose... On tasting a flavor with the tongue... On touching a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which — if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the intellect — evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. Endowed with this noble restraint over the sense faculties, he is inwardly sensitive to the pleasure of being blameless. This is how a monk guards the doors of his senses. (source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
- Goofaholix
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Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
Because it will probably inconvenience other people and probably won't make much difference to your dhamma practice, in my opinion.manas wrote:So long as practising eight precepts does not inconvenience anyone else (for example, if not consuming food after midday leaves someone too tired to work, or care for dependents), then I can't see why ANY layperson should not undertake them, so long as doing so improves their practice of the dhamma. Why not?
If you prefer to not eat dinner then just don't eat dinner, if you prefer to sleep on hard beds and not watch tv and not wear makeup or jewelry and not have sex then just don't do those things, there is no need to be all religious about it and pretend like you're a monastic. It then follows that there'll be no need to beat yourself up about it if you need to compromise at times as it's not about morality but simplifying your life.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
Guarding senses refers to the armor of mindfulnes at the Six Sense Doors. Noting seeing rather than grasping at particulars, if liking arises noting that as well, same with feelings associated with grasping and other Satipatthanas. It is going to be difficult/impossible in practice, especially in regards to women.
Another thing that is helpful is not eating much, avoiding excess energy and foods that entice lust, garlic and onions i heard are such foods ie."Lord, what course should we follow with regard to womenfolk?""Not-seeing, Ananda""But when there is seeing, lord, what course should be followed?""Not-addressing, Ananda.""But when we are addressed, what course should be followed?""Mindfulness should be established, Ananda."
- Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
This comment is unhelpful.Goofaholix wrote:If you prefer to not eat dinner then just don't eat dinner, if you prefer to sleep on hard beds and not watch tv and not wear makeup or jewelry and not have sex then just don't do those things, there is no need to be all religious about it and pretend like you're a monastic. It then follows that there'll be no need to beat yourself up about it if you need to compromise at times as it's not about morality but simplifying your life.
Some lay meditators may want to refine their morality to aid the development of concentration and insight. The last thing that they need is people telling them it is not helpful to strive harder to develop the Path. Whether one takes five precepts, eight, or ten, it is sure to develop some tension in an ordinary person. Precepts set boundaries that stem the current of desire. The defilements are highlighted where they can be observed more clearly. Eating after midday is not a need at all, and entertainments are simply a distraction from the truth of suffering.
The morality that is observed only when you find it convenient is ineffective. It is the Uposatha of the Jains.
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- Goofaholix
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Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
I think it is, the five precepts are about morality the additional in the eight precepts are about simplifying your life, there is nothing immoral about eating in the afternoon and clearly as the OP is finding it difficult they are not simplifying his/her life. The eight precepts simplify your life while living in the monastery because that's what everyone else is doing, that doesn't mean it's going to simplify your life when living at home and working every day etc, in fact depending on how it affects those that you live and work with it may complicate your life.Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:This comment is unhelpful.
Some lay meditators may want to refine their morality to aid the development of concentration and insight.
Instead of rigidly applying rules that may not be appropriate in the circumstances (possibly Silabbatupadana) I think it's better to look at intelligent ways to simplify your life appropriate to your circumstances.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
Abstaining from the evening meal because one is dieting or is not hungry is very diffrent from Abstaining from eating because it has been proclaimed as conducive to Enlightenment. Same with Singing and dancing, these are completely immoral because they are not conducive to Enlightenment and Awakening to the Truth, rather conducive to Craving, partiality, cultivating greed(craving), anger(boredom) and even delusion sometimes.
Getting hooked on Entertainment and one will cultivate inability to sit still and will get bored faster, in turn wasting time not meditating or contemplating because one's priorities are all messed up. We all might die within 5 minutes from now and might not be reborn human or better for billions and billions of years. Singing and dancing is negligent, reckless and irresponsible behavior.
It is ok not to keep these precepts in the world but only if one doesnt want to achieve Nibbana in this life. In that case it's alright as they are not the Five Fearful Animosities and even God's enjoy their Song and Dance but holding view that these are not immoral acts is wrong view .
If we have the Highest Goal in mind and comprehend Impermanence of even Brahma Realms, we will see that these seemingly innocent pleasures will corrupt us and lead to great suffering. Compared to Nibbana these joys are truly nothing, of no substance for having been they cease, as joy they bring is tainted, short lived, of little benefit and even conducive to suffering.
Getting hooked on Entertainment and one will cultivate inability to sit still and will get bored faster, in turn wasting time not meditating or contemplating because one's priorities are all messed up. We all might die within 5 minutes from now and might not be reborn human or better for billions and billions of years. Singing and dancing is negligent, reckless and irresponsible behavior.
It is ok not to keep these precepts in the world but only if one doesnt want to achieve Nibbana in this life. In that case it's alright as they are not the Five Fearful Animosities and even God's enjoy their Song and Dance but holding view that these are not immoral acts is wrong view .
If we have the Highest Goal in mind and comprehend Impermanence of even Brahma Realms, we will see that these seemingly innocent pleasures will corrupt us and lead to great suffering. Compared to Nibbana these joys are truly nothing, of no substance for having been they cease, as joy they bring is tainted, short lived, of little benefit and even conducive to suffering.
Re: Support in following the 8 precepts
About not eating after noon:
The actual pali word to the precept is "vicala bojanan...", which has literal meaning, "no eating at in-appropriate times", or practically, "not eating on times that are not 'eating times'". Then, in the monastic practice, there are only two eating times, just breakfast and lunch, and a finish time for lunch is specifically set to "before solar noon"., starting time of breakfast is set to "after sunrise".
May be in our daily practice as lay people, we should be a little practical with the "after sunrise, before solar noon" rule, instead stick to the literal meaning of the paali word, and limit to two meals a day., but not violate "before solar noon" by larger margins. We would usually take Lunch between say 11:30 and 14:30, and once we take that meal that we call "Lunch", then it is time to stop eating anything, until the meal what we call "Breakfast", whenever that time may be.
So, the main focus would be, two meals, no eating in-between meals, but a little flexible on timing. Wonder what other practitioners would think of this?
The actual pali word to the precept is "vicala bojanan...", which has literal meaning, "no eating at in-appropriate times", or practically, "not eating on times that are not 'eating times'". Then, in the monastic practice, there are only two eating times, just breakfast and lunch, and a finish time for lunch is specifically set to "before solar noon"., starting time of breakfast is set to "after sunrise".
May be in our daily practice as lay people, we should be a little practical with the "after sunrise, before solar noon" rule, instead stick to the literal meaning of the paali word, and limit to two meals a day., but not violate "before solar noon" by larger margins. We would usually take Lunch between say 11:30 and 14:30, and once we take that meal that we call "Lunch", then it is time to stop eating anything, until the meal what we call "Breakfast", whenever that time may be.
So, the main focus would be, two meals, no eating in-between meals, but a little flexible on timing. Wonder what other practitioners would think of this?
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.