In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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SarathW
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In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by SarathW » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:07 am

In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Would you like to share your experience of perception of light when in meditation.
According to Sutta or in your own experience , in which Jhana you experience this?
What really is this light?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

dhammarelax
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by dhammarelax » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:11 pm

SarathW wrote:In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Would you like to share your experience of perception of light when in meditation.
According to Sutta or in your own experience , in which Jhana you experience this?
What really is this light?
There are two kinds of light, one is experienced at neither perception nor nor perception and general is a small circle becoming larger and larger until vanishing and then again repeating the cycle, this can also appear in other shapes, the other is "radiance" this radiance is external to the body, appears in any jhana and in consequence of insight. I believe this is mentioned by Anaruddha in the Upakilessas.

The first kind is what you recall after emerging from perc- no perc and use the 4NTs on them and enter in the state called equanimity to formations, the lights you see are formations (2nd link of DO) where you have a felling of equanimity but is different of the equanimity of the 4rth jhana and of the 7th jhana. This recalling of the the lights is very particular in that is only mentioned in MN 111.

Smile
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

yann
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by yann » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:04 pm

One yogi can experiment the white light nimitta as I experiment.
The perception of light is well described in Theravada Buddhism, and same for the experience of Theravada monks. First the yogi practice Anapanasati bhavana on the noose. He can experiment all the 16 stages of the Anapanasati Sutta up to Nibbana. He experiment the First Tetrade of Anapanasati Sutta:
1) he experiments long breathing
2) he experiments short breathing
3) he experiments breathing in all parts of the body
4) he experiments calming calming body with breathing.

At this point, he begin to experiment spots of light coming at the end of the noose. When these spots begin many times, he can change the object of meditation switching to the light. This is the appearing of the light nimitta. After beginning every meditation with breathing in and out, and in accordance to the Vishuddimagga, the yogi will stay on the nimitta now and always, every time light will appear. About after 1 month, depending of the yogi meditation, The spot will become a persistent white light he can face for all the time he meditate.

After another month FIXING the light momento to momento, the white light becomes a cloud encountering all the head and shining so much. By this time, he can stay many hours practising the 5 five jhanangas ( vitaka, vicara, piti, sukha, ekagata).
He will experiment the 4 rupa jhana with nimitta of light, according to the Vishuddimagga.
When staying in forth jhana, he experiments the STOPPING of breathing as said in Anapanasati and Visuddhimagga for number of hours. Breathing comes back after 4TH jhana descending to other jhanas.
By this time, the yogi will experiment the extent of the light over all the body, and stay in the white light inside and outside of body. He can experiment STAYING AND BEEING THE WHITE LIGHT for many hours.
By this time, all the body and mind is PURIFIED by the bright and shining light.
There after the jhanas, he can continue experimenting Insight,Sati, Sati sampajanna of dhammas momento to momento.

be happy. :candle:

yann
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by yann » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:38 pm

for my experimentation and as described in the Vishuddhimagga,
one can experience the perception of light 4 manners:

1) with opened eyes, you focus on a white kasina. ( see Vishudimagga for the process)
2) with eyes closed, you focus on the white light coming from Dibba Cakkhu ( 3d eye)
3) outside jhana, simply focus every source of light, eyes opened or closed.. this is temporary
4) inside jhana, this is the nimitta of the light.. can be permanent for duration of jhana.

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Zom
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by Zom » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:10 pm

In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?
In 1st already. See AN 5.23.

SarathW
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by SarathW » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:19 pm

Zom wrote:
In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?
In 1st already. See AN 5.23.
Could you give the link?
Thanks
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:23 pm


SarathW
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by SarathW » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:32 pm

Thanks Mike.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

paul
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by paul » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:53 am

There is a difference between the light kasina and the kind of internal vision of the 'divine eye':

21. Of the light kasina it is said: “One who is learning the light kasina apprehends the sign in light in a hole in a wall, or in a keyhole, or in a window opening.” So firstly, when someone has merit, having had previous practice, the sign arises in him when he sees the circle thrown on a wall or a floor by sunlight or moonlight entering through a hole in a wall, etc., or when he sees a circle thrown on the ground by sunlight or moonlight coming through a gap in the branches of a dense-leaved tree or through a gap in a hut made of closely packed branches.--Vism. V, 21.

Practising the light kasina is however, a basis for developing the 'divine eye'.

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cjmacie
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by cjmacie » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:37 pm

Zom wrote:
In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?
In 1st already. See AN 5.23.
Are you sure? Looking through the link provided in
Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:23 pm
I couldn't find anything about light. Different sutta? or Hidden in some metaphor?

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Zom
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by Zom » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:14 pm

I meant that so called "perception of light" and in-jhanic luminosity is one and the same thing. Luminosity is said to appear when 5 hindrances are abandoned, which happens, well, in the 1st jhana already as this sutta says. MN 128 (the very end) is also worth looking at.

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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by paul » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:22 am

In this case at least 'perception of light' means daylight:

"But if by doing this you don't shake off your drowsiness, then attend to the perception of light, resolve on the perception of daytime, [dwelling] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, develop a brightened mind. It's possible that by doing this you will shake off your drowsiness." --AN VII, 58.

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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by cjmacie » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:52 pm

Zom wrote:
In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?
In 1st already. See AN 5.23.
Zom wrote:I meant that so called "perception of light" and in-jhanic luminosity is one and the same thing. Luminosity is said to appear when 5 hindrances are abandoned, which happens, well, in the 1st jhana already as this sutta says. MN 128 (the very end) is also worth looking at.
I still don't see reference to "light" in AN 5.23. The "luminous" there translates:
pabhassara -- adj. very bright; resplendent
That's reflectivity of light, not generation or emanation of light, or ?

Yes, lots of mention of "light" in MN 128.
dhammarelax wrote:...the lights you see are formations ... This recalling of the the lights is very particular in that is only mentioned in MN 111.
In MN 111 yes mention of "formations"; but nothing of "lights" there.

What am I missing (in AN 5.23 and MN 111)?

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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by Hyke » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:58 pm

paul wrote:In this case at least 'perception of light' means daylight:

"But if by doing this you don't shake off your drowsiness, then attend to the perception of light, resolve on the perception of daytime, [dwelling] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, develop a brightened mind. It's possible that by doing this you will shake off your drowsiness." --AN VII, 58.
That is a method for dealing with laziness or drowsiness, the passage is not referring to jhana. More on dealing with laziness: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 6.html#des

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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by Zom » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:46 pm

In this case at least 'perception of light' means daylight:
I strongly doubt this is the case. I see it as an explanation that inner light subjectively looks like just the real light - that is, white day light, or a star light, as explained in Visuddhimagga for example.
I still don't see reference to "light" in AN 5.23. The "luminous" there translates:
pabhassara -- adj. very bright; resplendent
That's reflectivity of light, not generation or emanation of light, or ?
I see it exactly as generation of (inner in-jhanic) light, not just an adjective. You can compare that passage in AN 5.23 with the jhanic explanation in MN 140 as well:

“Then there remains only equanimity, purified and bright, malleable, wieldy, and radiant. Suppose, bhikkhu, a skilled goldsmith or his apprentice were to prepare a furnace, heat up the crucible, take some gold with tongs, and put it into the crucible. From time to time he would blow on it, from time to time he would sprinkle water over it, and from time to time he would just look on. That gold would become refined, well refined, completely refined, faultless, rid of dross, malleable, wieldy, and radiant. Then whatever kind of ornament he wished to make from it, whether a golden chain or earrings or a necklace or a golden garland, it would serve his purpose. So too, bhikkhu, then there remains only equanimity, purified and bright, malleable, wieldy, and radiant.

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness…
…to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, then this equanimity of mine, supported by that base, clinging to it, would remain for a very long time.’


Equanimity here is, obviously, the synonym of the word "mind" (citta). Called so because of prominent equanimity factor.

SarathW
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by SarathW » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:55 pm

:goodpost: Zom
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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by SarathW » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:58 pm

paul wrote:In this case at least 'perception of light' means daylight:

"But if by doing this you don't shake off your drowsiness, then attend to the perception of light, resolve on the perception of daytime, [dwelling] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, develop a brightened mind. It's possible that by doing this you will shake off your drowsiness." --AN VII, 58.
What is the meaning of "by night as by day, and by day as by night"?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: In which Jhana you experience the perception of light?

Post by paul » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:19 pm

It means one focuses on the perception of daylight, then carries that into the night, then carries that perception into the day again, thereby dispelling drowsiness. The degree to which this would be perception of daylight or a mental image would depend on the progress of the individual because in terms of the preliminary work for samadhi, developing this would follow the normal pattern, focusing first on real daylight then developing the sign as a mental image.

Being in the open air is recommended for the removal of sloth and torpor:

The open air provides a life
That aids the homeless bhikkhu’s strife,
Easy to get, and leaves his mind Alert as a deer, so he shall find
(Mental) Stiffness and torpor brought to halt. Under the star-bejewelled vault
The moon and sun furnish his light, And concentration his delight. Vism. II, 62

The description of the development of the Perception of the Repulsiveness of Nutriment in Vism. XI shows that the development of a perception is based on reviewing the actual experience (of obtaining and eating food), and in this case, it would be of being in daylight.

"As he reviews repulsiveness in this way in ten aspects and strikes at it with thought and applied thought, physical nutriment becomes evident to him in its repulsive aspect. He cultivates that sign again and again, develops and repeatedly practices it. As he does so, the hindrances are suppressed, and his mind is concentrated in access concentration, but without reaching absorption because of the profundity of physical nutriment as a state with an individual essence. But perception is evident here in the apprehension of the repulsive aspect, which is why this meditation subject goes by the name of “perception of repulsiveness in nutriment.”
There may be a distinction in the suttas generally between 'perception' and direct knowledge.
In the Perception of Light, the aspects of brightness, openness and unhamperedness would be objects of perception as contrasted with the dull and closing aspects of drowsiness.
No jhana produces light spontaneously except as an imperfection of insight. The light kasina is capable of producing all four absorptions. This is the answer to the OP question.
The light in the practice is from understanding.
Last edited by paul on Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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