North Carolina's "bathroom law."

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Coëmgenu
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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:05 pm

ihrjordan wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:It is unfortunate no doubt, but we must understand that all beings are owners of their actions heirs to their actions. In the case of homeless people or trans genders they have previously created the conditions to be in an oppressed state. Noone forced them to put on women's clothing or even be homeless or crazy or whatever other circumstances they find themselves in. The common argument is that "they were born this way", but according to buddhism this would be considered their own doing. Blaming others for "trans discrimination" is like blaming nature for for having seasons. It is the way of the world to discriminate against things which are different or other.

If someone were to fornicate with animals and others called him names and shunned him would this be a form of oppression? ( I'm waiting for the day lgbt becomes lgbta) We shouldn't make normal what is by its very nature abnormal. A great Indian poet once said that it is easy to be indiscriminately generous, it is much more noble to know who is most worth giving to.

I used to give to homeless people and occasionally still do, but I've found that I'd much rather give to the sangha of bhikkus since it bears greater fruit. The way to empower the lgbt community and all of humainty for that matter is to give to the best of the best of human beings and then let the goodness trickle down so to speak. Its all too easy for the "disenfranchised" to place the blame on others for their predicament rather than to see what they're doinot wrong. As a person of mixed ethnicity (black, white, amerindian) and low financial standing by birth Ive seen so many people both black, white and otherwise complain that the system is what's holding them back...that people they've never had contact with are somehow responsible for their misfortunes.

Black lives matter, Alt-right angry white guys, lgbt, peta, feminists, redpillers all of these groups miss the point. They place the blame on the wrong thing. They point the finger at corporate greed but they are greedy themselves. They point the finger at straight people for hatred but they have hate in their own hearts.
They point the finger at the "male patriarchy" for oppression but they return in kind.

We must not forget to be the change you want to see in the world.
Gay people, doing nothing more than the passive act of existing, are not responsible for homophobia, as your post seems to tiptoe around implying. Similarly, neither Gay nor trans people are responsible for the action of other past selves who may have done good or bad things to land them in their present state. Clearly they must have done something awesome because they merited a human rebirth, and a human birth is a human birth no matter how one wants to spin it. The issue of kamma doesn't really bare on the issues of trans-discrimination, unless it's about the extraordinary negative kamma produced by the negative mindset of ill-will that causes to arise transphobic hate.

By the metric you have put forth for determining who does and doesn't deserve basic human dignity equal to their fellow humans you can justify all sorts of amorality.

If I have a neighbour who runs out of food why should I share my food with her? Clearly she did something awful in a past life and is only now getting what's coming to her. It's good that she starves. She was a horrible person, I know that because aweful things happen to her. See how this line of thinking doesn't work? It's a pathway to nowhere but apathy and amorality.
I'm sorry you chose to read these things into my above statements. Nowhere did I say that you can't help those in need and indeed neither did the Buddha, one should give where the heart feels inspired and giving in any form is not to be discouraged. What I said above is that you should not blame others (meaning; untrained worldlings) for discrimination as that is apart of the fabric of this world we live in. We will hear both kind and unkind words, feel both pain and pleasure. If we wish to not hear and feel these things we shouldn't put ourselves in a state which they are ever more prevelant. (Note that this is not a fee licence to be mean) I never once said it was a good thing to show hate to others but rather that, the hate in and of itself should not be viewed as the problem.

There's a saying which goes "if the earth is covered in broken glass you can either cover the earth in leather...or you can wear sandals" meaning that the problem is never with "them over there" but rather our ability to keep up with the natural changes of life. Sjws attempt to cover the earth made of broken glass in leather...an impossible task. Again we should be the change we wish to see in the world rather than blaming everyone else for our problems. This is my point. Notice the passive aggression that you seemed to display against me.. a perceived bigot presumably against a cause you believe in strongly...do you not see the contradiction? How can these groups expect change when they portray the exact same attitudes they are fighting?
The victim mentality is toxic in all its manifestations. It prevents true changes from being made.
"Neither did the Buddha" eh? I'm not particularly interested in whatever self-narratives you are invested in contriving here in search of self-justification for several of the absurd things that you insinuated in the post that I responded to, nor am I interested in precisely what degree you are willing to twist the Buddhadharma to suit your ideological positions. What I am interested in is exposing the things you actually said, not the self-narratives of Buddhadharma-justification you spin about your motivations:
The common argument is that "they were born this way", but according to buddhism this would be considered their own doing. Blaming others for "trans discrimination" is like blaming nature for for having seasons.
This is a statement calling trans-discrimination "natural". I would suggest you invest in some background reading in human anthropology.
If someone were to fornicate with animals and others called him names and shunned him would this be a form of oppression? ( I'm waiting for the day lgbt becomes lgbta)
"Next thing you know they will be legalizing sex with animals". That is a favourite absurd homophobic talking point that never seems to die. Perhaps this is proof in favour of svabhāvadhātu after all.
We shouldn't make normal what is by its very nature abnormal.
Eh? What definition of "normal" is operative here? "Normal" or "natural". Because "your normal" seems to have a fair degree of moral baggage to unpack. Especially given that the sentence I just quoted comes directly after calling lgtb people akin to bestiality-practitioners.
We shouldn't make normal what is by its very nature abnormal. A great Indian poet once said that it is easy to be indiscriminately generous, it is much more noble to know who is most worth giving to.
I wonder if you would consider most charities "worthy" of being "given to". Lgtb charities? Oh definitely not. You admitted here:
I used to give to homeless people and occasionally still do, but I've found that I'd much rather give to the sangha of bhikkus since it bears greater fruit.
that you are opposed to charity that does not go to directly to meditators. Non-meditators need your money more, to be frank.
The way to empower the lgbt community and all of humainty for that matter is to give to the best of the best of human beings and then let the goodness trickle down so to speak.
Trickle-down economics of prosperity didn't work for Reagan. They won't work for Trump. They wouldn't work for Buddhadharma either.
Its all too easy for the "disenfranchised" to place the blame on others for their predicament rather than to see what they're doinot wrong.
This is more "its the trans peoples' own fault for being trans that they are discriminated against" ridiculousness.

Call me attached to "victim-culture", a favourite go-to point for those of certain ideological orientations, but you said some utterly ridiculous things, then tried to justify your own biases, preconceptions, false-beliefs, and ideologies, as Buddhadharma, based on the idea that they are just a proper understand of kamma. That is not the case. This is just bias and misconception reified into Buddhism.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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ihrjordan
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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by ihrjordan » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:59 pm

The buddha said to give to those of whom you feel inspired. Whether it be your material things, energy or time, you should give where your mind has confidence. If your mind has confidence in the trans and homeless communities then keep going. This is not me "twisting the Buddha's words" if you're unfamiliar with what the Buddha said then that is a different issue. One of which I can help with:

"At Savatthi. As he was sitting to one side, King Pasenadi Kosala said to the Blessed One: "Where, lord, should a gift be given?"

"Wherever the mind feels confidence, great king."

"But a gift given where, lord, bears great fruit?"

"This [question] is one thing, great king — 'Where should a gift be given?' — while this — 'A gift given where bears great fruit?' — is something else entirely. " SN 3.24

Pointing the finger at others for the problems with the world is like blaming nature for having seasons, you can get bitter and red in the face as much as you want but until you or these communities focus on the real problem (that being internal) then you will see no real change.

These are the points that I'm trying to make, but remember that if you want to find evil in the world around you, you'll find it no problem. There's always a bad guy. :thinking:

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Mr Man » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:05 pm

ihrjordan wrote:The buddha said


Please do not.

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Sujith Manoharan » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:54 pm

Coëmgenu wrote: If I have a neighbour who runs out of food why should I share my food with her? Clearly she did something awful in a past life and is only now getting what's coming to her. It's good that she starves. She was a horrible person, I know that because aweful things happen to her. See how this line of thinking doesn't work? It's a pathway to nowhere but apathy and amorality.
Isn't that the essential point in Kamma, though ? It would be cruel to allow someone to starve, but it would be foolish to blame anyone other than the person for his or her situation. Hatred has no place in the Dhamma (the simile of the saw), but it doesn't mean that one has to carry someone else's burden. Regarding this specific issue, I have no particular interest in exploring the arguments of trans people. Why add more misery to existence by desiring a different gender ?

Take Gotami, for instance. She was discriminated against for her appearance and poverty. The Buddha didn't try to explain her situation within a social construct, but he made her see the flaw in her own understanding of the world.

Or Canda, who had every reason to hate the world. The nun who gave her the going forth guided her toward the goal of becoming an Arahant.

Such cases indicate that the Dhamma can't really be used for fighting social causes, whatever they may be. Kamma seems cold-hearted at times, but to me, it makes kammanirodho the only solution.

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by ihrjordan » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:37 am

Mr Man wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:The buddha said


Please do not.
Don't quote the Buddha? Is this discrimination? ;)

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:40 am

Sujith Manoharan wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote: If I have a neighbour who runs out of food why should I share my food with her? Clearly she did something awful in a past life and is only now getting what's coming to her. It's good that she starves. She was a horrible person, I know that because aweful things happen to her. See how this line of thinking doesn't work? It's a pathway to nowhere but apathy and amorality.
Isn't that the essential point in Kamma, though ? It would be cruel to allow someone to starve, but it would be foolish to blame anyone other than the person for his or her situation. Hatred has no place in the Dhamma (the simile of the saw), but it doesn't mean that one has to carry someone else's burden. Regarding this specific issue, I have no particular interest in exploring the arguments of trans people. Why add more misery to existence by desiring a different gender ?

Take Gotami, for instance. She was discriminated against for her appearance and poverty. The Buddha didn't try to explain her situation within a social construct, but he made her see the flaw in her own understanding of the world.

Or Canda, who had every reason to hate the world. The nun who gave her the going forth guided her toward the goal of becoming an Arahant.

Such cases indicate that the Dhamma can't really be used for fighting social causes, whatever they may be. Kamma seems cold-hearted at times, but to me, it makes kammanirodho the only solution.
So are you advocating for treating people, perhaps trans and gay people, differently on account of their perceived negative kamma? After all, my only message in these postings is that trans people deserve the same basic repect and dignity anyone else should be afforded. Do you disagree with this? Because that is the reason I brought up kamma. It is deeply problematic when we start to think certain people "deserve to suffering" because of their negative kamma. Their suffering is already their just kamma. There is no need to add to it. But let's say, for a moment, that people should be treated differently because we perceive them to suffer more than we suffer. In such a society: Who will be the arbiter of this social movement in morality, values, and ethics? Who will get to decide what people are to be considered "favoured-on-account-of-their-Kamma"? Who claims to have such profound understanding of dhamma as to be able to instantly ascertain the kammic circumstances of "people who should be treated differently" on account of their kamma?
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Sujith Manoharan » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:01 am

Coëmgenu wrote: So are you advocating for treating people, perhaps trans and gay people, differently on account of their perceived negative kamma? After all, my only message in these postings is that trans people deserve the same basic repect and dignity anyone else should be afforded. Do you disagree with this?
I agree that they should be treated with dignity. But why do you think they should inspire respect in me ? I am perfectly free to think that they are piling more misery on themselves.
Who will be the arbiter of this social movement? Who will get to decide what people are to be favoured-on-account-of-their Kamma? Who claims to have such profound understanding of dhamma as to be able to instantly ascertain the kammic circumstances of "people who should be treated differently" on account of their kamma?
Only a person with tevijja or an Arahant would be able to act in an unbiased manner. Actions by others (and their answers) will be grounded in conceit and vanity.

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:04 am

Sujith Manoharan wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote: So are you advocating for treating people, perhaps trans and gay people, differently on account of their perceived negative kamma? After all, my only message in these postings is that trans people deserve the same basic repect and dignity anyone else should be afforded. Do you disagree with this?
I agree that they should be treated with dignity. But why do you think they should inspire respect in me ? I am perfectly free to think that they are piling more misery on themselves.
As I am free to criticize the skillfulness of the way you choose to describe trans peoples' kammic condition to them. In fact, we are all free, so long as we are free to criticize respectfully.
Sujith Manoharan wrote:
Who will be the arbiter of this social movement? Who will get to decide what people are to be favoured-on-account-of-their Kamma? Who claims to have such profound understanding of dhamma as to be able to instantly ascertain the kammic circumstances of "people who should be treated differently" on account of their kamma?
Only a person with tevijja or an Arahant would be able to act in an unbiased manner. Actions by others (and their answers) will be grounded in conceit and vanity.
Well we certainly agree on that point in particular.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Sujith Manoharan » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:12 am

Coëmgenu wrote: As I am free to criticize the skillfulness of the way you choose to describe trans peoples' kammic condition to them. In fact, we are all free, so long as we are free to criticize.
From the perspective of the Dhamma, what other answer can be given ? When the Dhamma explains the birth of an individual to be the result of his or her own past actions, how can an allowance be made for this case alone ?

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:36 am

Sujith Manoharan wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote: As I am free to criticize the skillfulness of the way you choose to describe trans peoples' kammic condition to them. In fact, we are all free, so long as we are free to criticize.
From the perspective of the Dhamma, what other answer can be given ? When the Dhamma explains the birth of an individual to be the result of his or her own past actions, how can an allowance be made for this case alone ?
Their very birth was already their "just punishment". Just as our own very births are truly our own "just punishments", be us transexual or not. There is no need to treat people as inferior or treat people more harshly because you perceive them to suffer on account of a harsher kammic penalty than you. Similarly there is no need to patronizingly assume that one knows what is better for them because one conceives of one's birth as "higher" than there's on account of having less perceived negative kamma.
Sujith Manoharan wrote:But why do you think they should inspire respect in me ? I am perfectly free to think that they are piling more misery on themselves.
Their misery is their jāti. Their misery is their jarāmaraṇa. Just like you and I. There is no difference in that regard. Their misery is a product of their ill-treatment by other members of society on account of their unconventional expressions of maleness/femaleness. There is no progress to be made in adding to this cycle of ill-treatment, IMO.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Sujith Manoharan » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:13 am

Coëmgenu wrote: Their very birth was already their "just punishment". Just as our own very births are truly our own "just punishments", be us transexual or not. There is no need to treat people as inferior or treat people more harshly because you perceive them to suffer on account of a harsher kammic penalty than you. Similarly there is no need to patronizingly assume that one knows what is better for them because one conceives of one's birth as "higher" than there's on account of having less perceived negative kamma.
Sorry, but when did I say that I know what is better for other people ? :thinking:
Their misery is their jāti. Their misery is their jarāmaraṇa. Just like you and I. There is no difference in that regard. Their misery is a product of their ill-treatment by other members of society on account of their unconventional expressions of maleness/femaleness.
Not just jāti, but what comes after it too. Sorrow, pain, distress, despair, the stress of not getting what is wanted - all of which is traced to an individual's craving by the Buddha.

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:19 am

Sujith Manoharan wrote: From the perspective of the Dhamma, what other answer can be given ? When the Dhamma explains the birth of an individual to be the result of his or her own past actions, how can an allowance be made for this case alone ?
I take it that you have the opinion that being trans or gay is an unfortunate thing? If so, is that because you believe that it is intrinsically bad to be gay or trans, or is because gay or trans people may suffer from hate or discrimination?

:anjali:
Mike

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Coëmgenu
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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:22 am

Sujith Manoharan wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote: Their very birth was already their "just punishment". Just as our own very births are truly our own "just punishments", be us transexual or not. There is no need to treat people as inferior or treat people more harshly because you perceive them to suffer on account of a harsher kammic penalty than you. Similarly there is no need to patronizingly assume that one knows what is better for them because one conceives of one's birth as "higher" than there's on account of having less perceived negative kamma.
Sorry, but when did I say that I know what is better for other people ? :thinking:
When you said
Sujith Manoharan wrote:
I agree that they should be treated with dignity. But why do you think they should inspire respect in me ? I am perfectly free to think that they are piling more misery on themselves.
That implies you know what is better for them.
Sujith Manoharan wrote:
Their misery is their jāti. Their misery is their jarāmaraṇa. Just like you and I. There is no difference in that regard. Their misery is a product of their ill-treatment by other members of society on account of their unconventional expressions of maleness/femaleness.
Not just jāti, but what comes after it too. Sorrow, pain, distress, despair, the stress of not getting what is wanted - all of which is traced to an individual's craving by the Buddha.
And its not our business to insist that other people, by force of our polemics and disapproval, must have at least X or Y percent craving decreased at any moment. It is also making an assumption that the condition of being trans is predicated on actively making bad decisions. Instead of a less contrived answer: that the condition of being trans is predicated on past kamma, like all our jāti.

If I was born with a sixth finger on my right hand, would you insist I don't remove it? After all, its just my kamma to have a sixth finger on my right hand, which marks me as different and perhaps causes me to be treated poorly.

Similarly, if I was born with a vagina instead of a penis, I guess you would argue that I shouldn't try to seek medical help for my condition. After all, thats just my kamma, I suppose.

We cannot practice Buddhadharma for trans people. Let trans people practice Buddhadharma themselves in engagement with the Triple-Gem. There is no need for treating them poorly because they are different.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Sujith Manoharan » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:34 am

mikenz66 wrote: I take it that you have the opinion that being trans or gay is an unfortunate thing? If so, is that because you believe that it is intrinsically bad to be gay or trans, or is because gay or trans people may suffer from hate or discrimination?

:anjali:
Mike
No, I don't have the opinion that it's intrinsically bad. I just don't see why the Dhamma and its teaching of Kamma should be exempted in this case.

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Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Sujith Manoharan » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:37 am

Coëmgenu wrote: That implies you know what is better for them.
Maybe I should have worded it differently, but it wasn't my intention to indicate that I know what's good for other people.
We cannot practice Buddhadharma for trans people. Let trans people practice Buddhadharma themselves in engagement with the Triple-Gem. There is no need for treating them poorly because they are different.
Sure.

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