Does the Pali Canon make direct mention of the Matikas

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zan
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Does the Pali Canon make direct mention of the Matikas

Post by zan » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:48 pm

Does the Pali Canon ever directly mention the Matikas?
Last edited by zan on Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:17 pm, edited 5 times in total.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

Jones
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Re: Was the Buddha ever recorded as directly speaking about matikas etc.?

Post by Jones » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:06 pm

Hi,

Finally in the Nikaya suttas or Vinaya does he ever speak in language identical to or at least extremely similar to the Abhidhamma in such a way that it would be clear that the Sutta is quoting (or extremely similar to) the Abhidhamma and not that the similarity would point to that the Abhidhamma was quoting (or extremely similar to) the Sutta?

Majjhima Nikaya 111 is very similar to the Dhamasangani and the Vibhanga for example-

The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:

zan
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Was the Buddha ever recorded as directly speaking about matikas etc.?

Post by zan » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:06 am

Jones wrote:Hi,

Finally in the Nikaya suttas or Vinaya does he ever speak in language identical to or at least extremely similar to the Abhidhamma in such a way that it would be clear that the Sutta is quoting (or extremely similar to) the Abhidhamma and not that the similarity would point to that the Abhidhamma was quoting (or extremely similar to) the Sutta?

Majjhima Nikaya 111 is very similar to the Dhamasangani and the Vibhanga for example-

The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
Thank you for your reply. Sorry I edited my original post, I realized it started to ramble and was making my question(s) too vague.

If you re-read it now, could you answer it again please?
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

zan
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Does the Pali Canon make direct mention of Matika?

Post by zan » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:16 pm

Turns out it does. In DN 16 they are spoken of.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

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pilgrim
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Re: Does the Pali Canon make direct mention of the Matikas

Post by pilgrim » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:19 am

In the Maha Gopalaka sutta, MN 33
"And how does a monk know fords? There is the case where a monk goes time & again to the monks who are learned, well-versed in the tradition, who have memorized the Dhamma, the Vinaya, and the Matikas. He questions them, presents them with his problems: 'How is this, venerable sir? What is the meaning of this?' These venerable ones reveal what has not been revealed to him, make plain what has not been made plain to him, resolve his doubts about the many teachings that might give rise to doubt. This is how a monk knows fords."

theY
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Re: Does the Pali Canon make direct mention of the Matikas

Post by theY » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:56 am

Mātikā already described in the same canon after cittuppādakaṇḍa. This answer is for if you means abhidhamma is pāli-canons, too.

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The modern professors never know the method to read tipiṭaka and atthakathā, so they can't found the mentions in tipitaka. They often distorts tipiṭaka and atthakathā. I am sorry. I just want to let you see the primary cause of your question, I don't want to slander them.

What is the method to read mātikā?

The history of mātikā (nidāna)

In atthakathā told mātika was described by sāriputta as 6 abhidhamma canons. Sāriputta memorized mātikā from buddha then he taught mātika and his mātikā's descriptions to his students, then his students recited them mātikā and it's descriptions as abhidhamma-piṭaka at 1st saṇgāyanā.

Who is sāriputta? Sāriputta is the best teacher like the buddha who exalted by the buddha in A.N. Ekakanipāta, Ekapuggalavagga. And many sutta showed that everyone in buddha's time respected in sāriputta's description, such as in MN Mahāgosiṅgasālasutta which every etadagga go to listen sāriputta's describing dhamma (and all of them were the most important theras in the 1st saṅgāyanā of thera-vāda, therefore it is impossible that the abhidhamma and the other sāriputta-literal canons not come in 1st saṅgāyanā).

So, if mātikā is really taught by sāriputta we must can find abhidhamma style dhamma in sāriputta's sutta, too.

And yes, I often found it. But the ancient western professors studied tipitaka and atthakathā by bias of the western religious problems. Therefore, they never found these important connection. So, the westerner still uneducated by the obstruction, bias.

You need the revolution to understand tipitka and atthakathā deeper. And that revolution is the using kālāmasutta in the ancient western professors' comments, be aware their books.

See: anti-abhidhammist tag for more information.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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