Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

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SarathW
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:14 pm

Thank you Bhante.
Is there a link to English translation?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:32 pm

SarathW wrote:Thank you Bhante.
Is there a link to English translation?
Google is your friend. Udāna Text and Translation

This is not suicide, of course. Dabba foresaw his own imminent demise, and paid his final respects to the Blessed One before performing his self-cremation.

According to Fa Hsien, Venerable Ānanda did a similar thing to prevent anyone fighting over his remains.
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SarathW
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:28 am

Thank you Bhante
How do we know that he was an Arahant?
It is interesting to note.
(Mental) processes were pacified, ~ consciousness came to rest
Why it does not say consciousness end?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

justindesilva
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by justindesilva » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:23 am

SarathW wrote:
justindesilva wrote:Can any one indicate the intentions of suicide by the said arhant.
Secondly are these intentions selfish or else.
What difference of suicidal nature of an arhant or a priest such as the one in Vietnam for patriotic reasons.
These are important facts.
Q:Can any one indicate the intentions of suicide by the said arhant?

A:Intention is very clear. It is the Vibhava Thanha. Hatred of this life.

Q:Secondly are these intentions selfish or else?

A:I think it is selfish.
If these so called Arhants were in a good health they would not have taken the knife.

Q:What difference of suicidal nature of an arhant or a priest such as the one in Vietnam for patriotic reasons?
A: Whether it is patriotic will not make any difference. Taking your life is still wrong.
Now we come back to square one
Can an arhant be selfish for whatever reason. The life energy does not belong to our own self. Life energy is a universal property. It may not be said in a sutra. But we share life energy and that is why the first precept of pancasila is.
A person who has overcome lobha dosa and moha cannot be dissatisfied with life. There is a purpose in life.
The purpose of life can be read in between the lines of agganna sutra and vasetta sutra.
As these stories of arhants suiciding is written much later
It is my desire not to believe them and not to justify things
detrimental to buddhist philosophy.
Buddhist philosophy never justify selfishness as well shown in anatta lakkhana sutta.

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cappuccino
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by cappuccino » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:03 pm

If they had no attachment to life, it would be blameless.
However, breakthroughs come after breakdowns.
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justindesilva
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by justindesilva » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:55 pm

With gratitude for Bhikku pesala for indicating the state of nirvana of priest Dabba there is no indication that he suicided. As he rose up in the air fire (May be a form of natural lightening) engulfed him. Probably he knew the moment with his clairvoyance.
I am not aware of the other arhant s.

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Nicolas
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Nicolas » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:56 pm

I suggest that people relinquish their own views, carefully read the Godhika sutta, Vakkali sutta and the Channa sutta, and come to their own conclusions based solely on those, and not on the commentaries or others' views.

Of note:
* In the Godhika sutta, Mara is trying to convince the Buddha to stop Godhika from committing suicide.
* In the Vakkali sutta, Vakkali announces his arahantship ("I do not doubt that in regard to what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, I have no more desire, lust, or affection."), then commits suicide and attains final Nibbana.
* In the Channa sutta, Channa announces his arahantship ("Remember this, friend Sāriputta: the bhikkhu Channa will use the knife blamelessly.") and later takes the knife. The Buddha confirms ("didn’t the bhikkhu Channa declare his blameless-ness right in your presence?") when asked what Channa's destination is.

I agree that in one way it doesn't make sense for an arahant to commit suicide (that was my intuitive view before reading those suttas), but in another way it does. When confronted with different opinions on the topic, I choose the suttas over the commentaries.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:10 pm

Reading the Godhika Sutta it seems obvious to me that he had not attained Arahantship until after he had used the knife.
Godhika Sutta wrote:A seventh time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind.

Then it occurred to the Venerable Godhika: “Six times already I have fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Let me use the knife.”
Would an Arahant fall away from temporary liberation of mind? Surely, Arahantship is final and stable liberation of mind!?

This is why we do need to look at the Commentaries. Reading the Suttas alone, one may interpret them in different ways according to one's bias. Some texts would be hard to interpret without the commentary.

“Having slain mother and father¹ and two warrior kings,
and having destroyed a country together with its chancellor,
a Saint goes ungrieving .” Dhp v 294

“Having slain mother and father and two brahmin kings,
and having destroyed the perilous path,
a Saint goes ungrieving.” Dhp v 295
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Nicolas
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Nicolas » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:24 pm

Indeed, you are correct regarding the Godhika sutta, and it is obvious Godhika wasn't an arahant. Apologies for the overlook.

What about the other two suttas, though? Regarding Channa, "didn’t the bhikkhu Channa declare his blameless-ness right in your presence?" seems pretty clear-cut, implying that Channa was indeed blameless when talking to Sariputta.

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by davidbrainerd » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:45 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Reading the Godhika Sutta it seems obvious to me that he had not attained Arahantship until after he had used the knife.
Godhika Sutta wrote:A seventh time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind.

Then it occurred to the Venerable Godhika: “Six times already I have fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Let me use the knife.”
Would an Arahant fall away from temporary liberation of mind? Surely, Arahantship is final and stable liberation of mind!?

This is why we do need to look at the Commentaries. Reading the Suttas alone, one may interpret them in different ways according to one's bias. Some texts would be hard to interpret without the commentary.

“Having slain mother and father¹ and two warrior kings,
and having destroyed a country together with its chancellor,
a Saint goes ungrieving .” Dhp v 294

“Having slain mother and father and two brahmin kings,
and having destroyed the perilous path,
a Saint goes ungrieving.” Dhp v 295
It seems obvious to me he didn't attain arhantship by taking the knife either. I'm not going to base my understanding of the Dhamma on Hagiographa that was probably made up by people of later times who wanted to create a simple loophole quick path: "oh, just slit your throat, and maybe you'll attain arhatship afterwards before all the blood drains out." Its absurd and should never have made it into the canon, so I reject its claims.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:46 pm

Nicolas wrote:Indeed, you are correct regarding the Godhika sutta, and it is obvious Godhika wasn't an arahant. Apologies for the oversight.

What about the other two suttas, though? Regarding Channa, "didn’t the bhikkhu Channa declare his blameless-ness right in your presence?" seems pretty clear-cut, implying that Channa was indeed blameless when talking to Sariputta.
The Commentary explains that he was mistaken about his attainment, that is why these great elders questioned and cross-questioned him. These eminent elders were able to know the minds of others, and therefore would have known that Channa was still not liberated.
DPPN wrote:Mahā-Cunda was evidently a disciple of great eminence, and is mentioned by the Buddha (A.iii.299; see also M.iii.78; Ud.i.5) in company with the Two Chief Disciples, Mahā-Kassapa, Mahā Kotthita, Mahā-Kaccāna and other very eminent Elders.
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Nicolas
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Nicolas » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:50 pm

(Indeed, "oversight"--thank you.)

The commentary makes sense, but I still can't reconcile it with "didn’t the bhikkhu Channa declare his blameless-ness right in your presence?". How does the commentary explain it?

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:02 pm

I attach a PDF of Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes on this sutta.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:It should be noted that this commentarial interpretation is imposed on the text from the outside, as it were. If one sticks to the actual wording of the text it seems that Channa was already an arahant when he made his declaration, the dramatic punch being delivered by the failure of his two brother-monks to recognise this. The implication, of course, is that excruciating pain might motivate even an arahant to take his own life—not from aversion but simply from a wish to be free from unbearable pain.
So, if an Arahant is unable to bear severe pain, how can he be free from aversion? I see no way that this interpretation is possible.
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Nicolas
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Nicolas » Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:21 pm

Thank you.

Perhaps Channa was able to bear the pain, but saw it as unnecessary to remain alive in such conditions, considering his work was done?
Just as the Buddha says "my back aches, I will rest it", then perhaps Channa might say "my body aches, I will end it", seeing it as the simple (and blameless) answer to his body's condition, without aversion?

:shrug:

SarathW
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:10 pm

Yes this is exactly the point made by Bhante Jag. I can see his point. However i still uncertain about it as I am not an Arahant.
Considering the varied opinion and the uncertainty, I rather take the safe path.
That is ,Arahant will not commit suicide.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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