Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

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SarathW
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:44 am

:goodpost: :)

The question is in your opinion all those Arahants (appears to be) were Panna Vimukti?
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:02 am

udani wrote:There are four Arahants who committed suicide: Channa, Godhika, Vakkali, and Vesali. Channa and Vakkali committed suicide after attaining to the Arahantship.
According to my sources they committed suicide first, then attained Arahantship. Since Arahants are entirely free from dosa, why would they take their own life? The accounts clearly show that these men were not free from dejection and disappointment (which are aspects of dosa) prior to taking up a knife.

VakkaliChannaGodhika

I could find no reference to a monk named "Vesali." Your Pāli spellings are often wrong. Please try to use the correct spellings to avoid confusion: e.g. V for W, dukkha, paññā, vimokkha, Sāriputta, etc.

I appreciate the problems with transliteration from Sihala script, but it's not too hard to learn the correct spellings. Pali Transliteration Tables

ka kha ga gha ṅga
ca cha ja jha ña
ṭa ṭha ḍa ḍha ṇa
ta tha da dha na
pa pha ba bha ma
ya ra la va sa
ha ḷa aṃ
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udani
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by udani » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:02 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
udani wrote:There are four Arahants who committed suicide: Channa, Godhika, Vakkali, and Vesali. Channa and Vakkali committed suicide after attaining to the Arahantship.

VakkaliChannaGodhika
These are not pure sources. please refer "Channovada Sutta" in Majjima Nikaya. that sutta clearly mentioned that channa know about his attainment(Arahanship) before suicide.He tell about his attainment to Sāriputta and Ven Sāriputta questioned about the path as "Chabbisodana Sutta". And he also realized that . After Channa committed suicide Ven Sāriputta informed it to load Buddha and ask about his Arahantship. then Load buddha said "He already replied to you as he is non returner . Thats true he is an Arahant . this was his last life"

Please refer original Sutta. all your sources are not original suttas and Authors of given sources define these thing according to their understanding.
you can download thripitaka using this link [html]http://www.tipitaka.org/pdf/romn/[/html]

"Since Arahants are entirely free from dosa" - does this mean that Arahant did not feel any pains.
if they haven't any supperJana why they hanging on this painful body, they just give up it.

udani
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by udani » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:11 am

SarathW wrote::goodpost: :)

The question is in your opinion all those Arahants (appears to be) were Panna Vimukti?
I discussed this with an Arahant and according to his clarification all of these arahants are Panna Vimukti. And aslo I didn't find any sutta that mention supper Jhana of above arahants.

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robertk
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by robertk » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:13 am

udani wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
udani wrote:There are four Arahants who committed suicide: Channa, Godhika, Vakkali, and Vesali. Channa and Vakkali committed suicide after attaining to the Arahantship.

VakkaliChannaGodhika
These are not pure sources. please refer "Channovada Sutta" in Majjima Nikaya. that sutta clearly mentioned that channa know about his attainment(Arahanship) before suicide.He tell about his attainment to Sāriputta and Ven Sāriputta questioned about the path as "Chabbisodana Sutta". t.
Channa had the wrong idea that he was an arahant. After he cut his throat he realised he was a mere worldling: and there and then developed developed vipassana and went through the various stages to become arahant.

udani
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by udani » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:16 am

robertk wrote: Channa had the wrong idea that he was an arahant. After he cut his throat he realised he was a mere worldling: and there and then developed developed vipassana and went through the various stages to become arahant.
what is the source you get this. I just explained what is in the original sutta.if you not agreed with this you need another original Source from thripitaka to clarify this. I think We cant give clarifications to dhamma according to our understanding.

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robertk
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by robertk » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:53 am

udani wrote:
robertk wrote: Channa had the wrong idea that he was an arahant. After he cut his throat he realised he was a mere worldling: and there and then developed developed vipassana and went through the various stages to become arahant.
what is the source you get this. I just explained what is in the original sutta.if you not agreed with this you need another original Source from thripitaka to clarify this. I think We cant give clarifications to dhamma according to our understanding.
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... channa.htm
Buddhaghosa explains (MA.ii.1012f.; SA.iii.12f ) that after cutting his throat, Channa, feeling the fear of death, suddenly realised that he was yet a puthujjana. This thought so filled him with anguish that he put forth special effort, and by developing insight became an arahant

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:59 am

udani wrote:These are not pure sources. please refer to the "Channovāda Sutta" in Majjhima Nikāya. That Sutta clearly mentioned that Channa knew about his attainment (Arahantship) before suicide.He tell about his attainment to Sāriputta and Ven Sāriputta questioned him about the path as "Chabbisodana Sutta". And he also realized that. After Channa committed suicide Ven Sāriputta informed Lord Buddha and ask about his Arahantship. Then Lord Buddha said "He already replied to you as he is non-returner. That's true he is an Arahant. This was his last life."

Please refer original Sutta. All your sources are not original suttas and authors of given sources define these thing according to their understanding.

"Since Arahants are entirely free from dosa - does this mean that Arahant did not feel any pains?
if they haven't any super jhāna why they hanging on this painful body, they just give up it.
Thanks for links, but Malasekera, the author of the DPPN, did refer to pure sources: the Majjhimanikāya and its Commentary. If you refer only to the Sutta you may interpret according to your own views, but the Commentary makes it clear that Channa realised Arahantship only after cutting his throat.

Yes, Arahants do experience painful feelings (dukkha vedanā), but they have no ill-will (dosa), therefore they can bear painful feelings with perfect equanimity. Please refer to my earlier quote from Milindapañha which itself refers to Theragāthā 1001-1002 about Arahants not longing for life or death, but mindfully biding their time until death occurs.
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udani
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by udani » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:03 am

robertk wrote: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... channa.htm
Buddhaghosa explains (MA.ii.1012f.; SA.iii.12f ) that after cutting his throat, Channa, feeling the fear of death, suddenly realised that he was yet a puthujjana. This thought so filled him with anguish that he put forth special effort, and by developing insight became an arahant
This is buddhagoshas explanation against to raw Sutta. But raw Sutta is clearly defined his arahanship. If you have knowledge of Pali ,it's better to read original Sutta.

udani
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by udani » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:21 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
udani wrote:These are not pure sources. please refer to the "Channovāda Sutta" in Majjhima Nikāya. That Sutta clearly mentioned that Channa knew about his attainment (Arahantship) before suicide.He tell about his attainment to Sāriputta and Ven Sāriputta questioned him about the path as "Chabbisodana Sutta". And he also realized that. After Channa committed suicide Ven Sāriputta informed Lord Buddha and ask about his Arahantship. Then Lord Buddha said "He already replied to you as he is non-returner. That's true he is an Arahant. This was his last life."

Please refer original Sutta. All your sources are not original suttas and authors of given sources define these thing according to their understanding.

"Since Arahants are entirely free from dosa - does this mean that Arahant did not feel any pains?
if they haven't any super jhāna why they hanging on this painful body, they just give up it.
Thanks for links, but Malasekera, the author of the DPPN, did refer to pure sources: the Majjhimanikāya and its Commentary. If you refer only to the Sutta you may interpret according to your own views, but the Commentary makes it clear that Channa realised Arahantship only after cutting his throat.

Yes, Arahants do experience painful feelings (dukkha vedanā), but they have no ill-will (dosa), therefore they can bear painful feelings with perfect equanimity. Please refer to my earlier quote from Milindapañha which itself refers to Theragāthā 1001-1002 about Arahants not longing for life or death, but mindfully biding their time until death occurs.
Who make the commentary. That's the question. Are they arahants.if they couldnt underatand how it happens they put their clarifications as commentaries. .commentaries done after long time from Buddha parinirwana. I think it's better to trust raw Sutta more than the commentaries .I just put contents of original Sutta.If you can understand Pali you will realize it .No single word from my view. You can believe your sources. Believing raw Sutta or commentaries is personal matter

justindesilva
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by justindesilva » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:34 pm

Can any one indicate the intentions of suicide by the said arhant.
Secondly are these intentions selfish or else.
What difference of suicidal nature of an arhant or a priest such as the one in Vietnam for patriotic reasons.
These are important facts.

SarathW
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:18 pm

justindesilva wrote:Can any one indicate the intentions of suicide by the said arhant.
Secondly are these intentions selfish or else.
What difference of suicidal nature of an arhant or a priest such as the one in Vietnam for patriotic reasons.
These are important facts.
Q:Can any one indicate the intentions of suicide by the said arhant?

A:Intention is very clear. It is the Vibhava Thanha. Hatred of this life.

Q:Secondly are these intentions selfish or else?

A:I think it is selfish.
If these so called Arhants were in a good health they would not have taken the knife.

Q:What difference of suicidal nature of an arhant or a priest such as the one in Vietnam for patriotic reasons?
A: Whether it is patriotic will not make any difference. Taking your life is still wrong.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:25 pm

There is another story where an Arahant took the permission from Buddha and end his life.
He rose to the air and became ashes.
Can someone give me the Sutta reference?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by santa100 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:35 pm

udani wrote:I discussed this with an Arahant and according to his clarification all of these arahants are Panna Vimukti. And aslo I didn't find any sutta that mention supper Jhana of above arahants.
The obvious question is how do you know the dude you talked to is truely an Arahant? Did he tell you or give hint in some way? In either case, if he did, then he definitely is not an Arahant for you do know that regular monks aren't allowed to disclose their attainment to lay people, let alone Arahants right? If this is just your guess that you've talked to an Arahant then all bets are off apparently..

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:57 pm

SarathW wrote:There is another story where an Arahant took the permission from Buddha and end his life.
He rose to the air and became ashes.
Can someone give me the Sutta reference?
Dabba evidently died young. The Udāna (Ud.viii.9; UdA.431 f ) contains an account of his death. One day, returning from his alms rounds in Rājagaha, he saw that he had but a short while yet to live. He went, therefore, to the Buddha and, with his leave, showed various psychic-powers and passed away.
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