Victims of Communism

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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chownah
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:09 am

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:
For many people, unemployment is basically a death sentence
Only for those with psychological problems.....or perhaps in some really really really represive regime. This is not a valid concept for a serious discussion in this thread in my opinion.
Look at all the homeless people who had lost their jobs, whom nobody wants, who end up on the street and die in abject poverty. Some of them are no better off than the people in WWII concentration camps.

Modus.Ponens wrote:Would you say that what happened in Awschwitz to jews, blacks and roma, is comparable to the suffering of unemployment?
For some of the unemployed, of course.

Some people seem to have really romantic ideas about what it means to be unemployed (and unemployable), homeless, and living and dying in homelessness.
Key word here "unemployable". What makes a person unemployable?
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binocular
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by binocular » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:45 am

chownah wrote:Key word here "unemployable". What makes a person unemployable?
Policy-makers decide that.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

chownah
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:04 pm

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:Key word here "unemployable". What makes a person unemployable?
Policy-makers decide that.
I think that the correct answer about who makes the decision is that employers make the decision....but if one looks at the individual's characteristics then it is the individuals physical and/or mental characteristics which make a person unemployable.
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:59 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Binocular,

I have you in higher regard than that. Would you say that what happened in Awschwitz to jews, blacks and roma, is comparable to the suffering of unemployment?

It's not as if torturers, enslavers and mass murderers, wether nazis or communists, treated their victims psychologically well apart from this explicit physical violence.

Do you really think this is a reasonable comparison?! Are you actually thinking this through?
MP, you started with a broadbrush claim that under Communism you are seemingly bound to be tortured. The nuance that there has been a broad spectrum of so-called Communist regimes seems to escape you and Will. You will happily equate Communism with Nazism and Totalitarianism and juxtapose our current so-called democracies as the wonderful alternative. A deplorably intellectually sloppy position, in my view.
Dan,

You are only bound to torture, enslavement or death if you're deemed an enemy if the state, or "the greater good". If you are in the party and always obey their orders you're probably going to be ok, unless the dictator is paranoid like Stalin was.

Yes there is a spectrum of communist regimes, just as there is a spectrum of fascist ones. I assume we're against them all.

The point I've been trying to make clear from the start is that no communist regime can be installed without mass violence. If you abolish private means of production you are making political opponents. And those political opponents are too many for a peaceful solution to such drastic policies. And that's when mass violence gets into the picture.

Compared with what happens inside these countries, democracies are better.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Dan74
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Dan74 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:18 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Binocular,

I have you in higher regard than that. Would you say that what happened in Awschwitz to jews, blacks and roma, is comparable to the suffering of unemployment?

It's not as if torturers, enslavers and mass murderers, wether nazis or communists, treated their victims psychologically well apart from this explicit physical violence.

Do you really think this is a reasonable comparison?! Are you actually thinking this through?
MP, you started with a broadbrush claim that under Communism you are seemingly bound to be tortured. The nuance that there has been a broad spectrum of so-called Communist regimes seems to escape you and Will. You will happily equate Communism with Nazism and Totalitarianism and juxtapose our current so-called democracies as the wonderful alternative. A deplorably intellectually sloppy position, in my view.
Dan,

You are only bound to torture, enslavement or death if you're deemed an enemy if the state, or "the greater good". If you are in the party and always obey their orders you're probably going to be ok, unless the dictator is paranoid like Stalin was.

Yes there is a spectrum of communist regimes, just as there is a spectrum of fascist ones. I assume we're against them all.

The point I've been trying to make clear from the start is that no communist regime can be installed without mass violence. If you abolish private means of production you are making political opponents. And those political opponents are too many for a peaceful solution to such drastic policies. And that's when mass violence gets into the picture.

Compared with what happens inside these countries, democracies are better.
You might want to look up people like Alexander Dubcek, Thomas Sankara, as well as Sandinista National Liberation front, to see that not all Communists follow the cliche old script that you and Will appear to believe to be mandatory.

This is not to say they were without faults. But the extreme stance against Communism shown here is not justified, IMO.
_/|\_

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by binocular » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:21 pm

chownah wrote:I think that the correct answer about who makes the decision is that employers make the decision....but if one looks at the individual's characteristics then it is the individuals physical and/or mental characteristics which make a person unemployable.
Where are you aiming with this? That it is the person's own fault and responsibility that they are unemployable? What further implications do you see as coming from there?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

chownah
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:11 pm

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:I think that the correct answer about who makes the decision is that employers make the decision....but if one looks at the individual's characteristics then it is the individuals physical and/or mental characteristics which make a person unemployable.
Where are you aiming with this? That it is the person's own fault and responsibility that they are unemployable? What further implications do you see as coming from there?
My aim is to see things as they really are. It seems to me that some of your ideas about unemployability do not reflect the way things really are...but maybe I am wrong. Very few people are unemployable although for many people it is very difficult to find employment. If you really want to describe people who are absolutely and unequivically unemployable in every way then I think that physical and/or mental disability is the reason. It has nothing to do with responsibility or blame.
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Will
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:36 pm

A story not flattering to Cuba that gets little attention...

http://dailysignal.com/2016/09/08/toget ... er-strike/
Last edited by Will on Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

davidbrainerd
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by davidbrainerd » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:56 pm

Ben wrote:And neoliberal capitalism doesn't have blood on its hands?
I think not.
Isn't neoliberal capitalism essentially communism?

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SDC
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by SDC » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:16 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:
Ben wrote:And neoliberal capitalism doesn't have blood on its hands?
I think not.
Isn't neoliberal capitalism essentially communism?
Ben no longer has an active account on DW.

Didn't want you to go holding your breath for his response, although I am sure others will take the question.

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:18 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:
Ben wrote:And neoliberal capitalism doesn't have blood on its hands?
I think not.
Isn't neoliberal capitalism essentially communism?
You mean an oligarchy of unelected, powerful, people take over all of the means of production? I guess so.

This whole thing seems moot to me. There's only a couple of countries that are Communist anymore.

Sure, one can point out many faults in China and other former communist countries but:
1. China (and the others) is no longer communist. Authoritarian neoliberal would be a possible description, with, as far as I can figure from my Chinese friends, less social services than countries in Western Europe or Australasia. So, the people who are currently being persecuted are by no stretch of the imagination "victims of communism".
2. It's infinitely better than it was when it was under Mao's wacky control. I have friends who suffered through the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. They have not forgotten...

The key things my Chinese friends have worries about are:
1. Lack of social services, therefore potential problems in retirement.
2. Corruption.

The same problems people are concerned about about in places such as the Philippines, Thailand, much of South America...

Fluffy Western ideas about "democracy" are not high on their priorities, even for those who have lived a significant time in the West...

:anjali:
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by DNS » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:56 pm

mikenz66 wrote: This whole thing seems moot to me. There's only a couple of countries that are Communist anymore.
China (and the others) is no longer communist.
North Korea, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and China, but you're right, none are really communist any more. I think they are just keeping the title of communist so they don't have to hold elections. They are more like corrupt totalitarian oligarchies.
2. It's infinitely better than it was when it was under Mao's wacky control.
Excellent.
Fluffy Western ideas about "democracy" are not high on their priorities, even for those who have lived a significant time in the West...
And our Western democracies are far from perfect too. Although mostly a moot issue as you say, I guess there might be some value in bringing up the past victims to remember the atrocities and so that history doesn't repeat itself. Too often, once so many years or decades pass, some start to romanticize failed policies and theories of the past. Numerous communes, villages and communities tried communism on a small scale in the U.S., Israel and around the world and all pretty much failed, nearly all no longer in existence or for the few still around, very small in numbers with numerous financial and other problems. However, noble the intentions were, it didn't work in practice.
I have friends who suffered through the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. They have not forgotten...
As the Jews say about slavery and genocide: Never Again!

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Zom » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:21 pm

Numerous communes, villages and communities tried communism on a small scale in the U.S., Israel and around the world and all pretty much failed, nearly all no longer in existence or for the few still around, very small in numbers with numerous financial and other problems. However, noble the intentions were, it didn't work in practice.
Yes, indeed so. I was born in the USSR in 1981. And I still remember it, how it was, though I was a kid at this time -) Empty shops, people wearing similar clothes, buying similar furniture and household appliances (of poor quality), living in a similar quarters, everyone had ~same salary. Just like, you know, clones in some science fiction film )) If you saved enough money, you can sign up for buying a car - but you'll have to wait for some years until you can finally get it.

Ye, that's how it was (1965 - black n' white pic of my hometown) -- http://swalker.org/uploads/posts/2014-1 ... -stely.jpg :tongue:

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mikenz66
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:38 pm

In my case I have personally seen the difference between Poland in 1984 and 2000, and various Chinese places I visited in the late 80s to early 90s vs the early 2000s.

I recall a couple of interesting observations from my Polish friends:

1984: We're used to being invaded. Sometimes the Germans, sometimes the Russians. Eventually they go away.
On that trip we were taken to the newly-restored Panorama of the Polish insurrection of 1794...
https://www.inyourpocket.com/wroclaw/ra ... ama_18835v

2000: When the Russians were here we didn't seem to have enough food (there was rationing in 1984 on my previous trip). Now there's plenty of food...

I've only visited Russia once (St Petersburg last year), but judging from that visit I would have seen the same sort of differences I've seen in Poland and China.

:anjali:
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Zom » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:53 pm

I've only visited Russia once (St Petersburg last year)
You should have come to our center, how did you miss such a chance! :evil: 8-)
The one & only theravadin dhamma center in the world right in the dome of the Lutheran Church -)

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