Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

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Assaji
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Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Assaji »

Hello Pali friends,

First, what type of compound is "paṭicca-samuppāda".

Ole Holten Pind wrote:
This compound is somewhat peculiar. pa.ticca is an absolutive. Now
absolutives do not normally occur as first member in compounds. In the
present case we need a syntactical complement to understand it e.g. a noun
in the accusative like hetum or kara.nam or any other term in the
accusative. As you can imagine the fact that absolutives normally denote
actions preceding the action denoted by the finite verb, provided that the
two actions have the same agent, this particular compound has generated a
heated controversy among Buddhists interested in grammar, because the action
denoted by the absolutive normally precedes that of the finite verb. Now all
we can say is that pa.ticcasamuppaada means "origination dependent (on
something). " The usual translation "dependent origination" is meaningless
and ungrammatical, besides being not very intelligent considering the
canonical context, in addition to the grammatical constraints on the
semantics of absolutives. Cf. the vinaya term pa.ticcakamma which means " an
action that is due (to someone else, i.e. caused by someone else). " For
instance, the crime that someone who has made you commit would be a
pa.ticcakamma. In short, it is a "syntactical compound" in the sense that it
is syntactically dependent upon an explicit or implicit term that is
independent and syntactically external to the terms of the compound.
Therefore the peculiar term "syntactical compound."
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Rett Thiele wrote:
My best guess is that it would be considered a tappurisa of a sort called 'nicca' (unanalysable). However it's obviously not a 'classic tappurisa' (suddhatappurisa) where the first member stand in an oblique case relation to the latter member when analysed.

As far as I can see, Aggava.msa (author of Saddaniiti) doesn't really take a clear stand on this point. In Paa.nini, tatpuru.sa has the more general sense 'determinative compound' in addition to the more restricted sense of a compound where the first element stands in an oblique case relation to the second when resolved (the latter being the one we are most familiar with). In this system, pa.ticcasamuppaada can belong to a class of irregular determinative (tatpuru.sa) cpds called mayuuravy.amsaka-s. Some examples of the latter (ashtadhyayi II.1.72) are pitvaasthiraka and nipatyarohi.nii. (having drunk, steady? I.e. able to hold his drink? Or strong after drinking?) and (having fallen, stood up? Standing up after falling down?).

So far, however, I haven't seen this more general sense of tappurisa explicitly stated in Aggava.msa. He goes straight to defining tappurisa as a compund with an oblique (from accusative onwards, lit. amaadayo, having the (ending -am and so forth) relation between the words.

My assumption (from Kahrs) is that Aggava.msa has borrowed material from mainstream Sanskrit grammar without always maintaining its structural integrity or systematic function in its context. Aggava.msa was more of a compiler than a systematizer or synthesizer.

The main place where Aggava.msa mentions the cpd pa.ticcasamuppada (and the similar upaadaayaruupa.m/upaadaaruupa.m) is in sutta 683 of the suttamaalaa, where he states that compounds beginning with an absolutive are "niccasamaasa". This is a type of compound (samaasa) which is always (nicca.m) a compound. The point is that you can't resolve the compound into its component parts. (at least not using only the words in the compound). (in Sanskrit: nityasamaasa)

As Ole pointed out, the analysis of pa.ticcasamuppaada would require another word , for example "hetu.m paticca samuppada". Aggava.msa illustrates the same idea in this way: a~n~nama~n~na.m pa.ticca sahite dhamme uppaadetii ti pa.ticcasamuppaado. "Mutually depending on connected things it arises" = dependent origination.

Another sort of compound which is considered 'nicca' is what is called an upapadasamaasa "prefix (upapada) compound". In Pa.nini this is specifically a compound where a word is prefixed to a verbal root, and the root becomes an action noun through addition of a suffix, but where that action noun could not exist apart from the prefix. Ex: kumbhakaaro: jar maker, potter.

This upapadasamaasa, which is nicca, is included in the discussion of tappurisas, not surprisingly since the is an accusative relation between 'making' and the thing made (the kumbha).

Since this latter 'niccasamaasa' is taken as an example of a tappurisa, I would be inclined to take cpds whose first member is an absolutive also as such, though again, in the wider sense of tappurisa....

...Sutta 707 appears to go into this.
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and
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Alan McClure wrote:
Of course, much of the above exchange is dealing with grammar and technical terms, etc. However, there is an important reason that I wanted to go into all of this. If it is indeed true that "pa.ticca-samuppada" is different from a "normal" determinative compound, i.e. it is a "syntactical compound," then might it be translated differently too?

Dr. Pind notes that this idea is a source of Buddhist debate, and I can see why, for it does indeed seem that the common translation of "Dependent Origination" is not quite accurate. Again, Dr. Pind says that:
"all we can say is that pa.ticcasamuppaada means "origination dependent (on something). The usual translation "dependent origination" is meaningless and ungrammatical, besides being not very intelligent considering the canonical context, in addition to the grammatical constraints on the
semantics of absolutives."
"Origination dependent upon [something]," however, is not a very smooth translation. However, it seemed to me that it is more specific and accurate, so I started to think about what could replace the "something" so that the translation would sound better and would be more accurate grammatically, etc. than "Dependent Origination." Since the compound is actually lacking a concept, the "something" the idea was to figure out what that something should be in English.

As I thought about different possibilities, I recalled a recent post by Dmytro where he mentions that "paccaya" in the context of pa.ticca-samuppada can be translated as 'requisite condition,' no doubt focusing on the fact that other conditions can be present as well, but that the preceeding condition, or the one that the orgination of the following condition is dependent upon, is required.

So, it occured to me, that along these lines, a good translation of pa.ticca-samuppada might be:

"Origination that is dependent upon a requisite condition"
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Assaji »

A definitive sutta on this subject:

Paccayasuttaṃ

20. Sāvatthiyaṃ viharati…pe… ‘‘paṭiccasamuppādañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi paṭiccasamuppanne ca dhamme. Taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha, bhāsissāmī’’ti. ‘‘Evaṃ, bhante’’ti kho te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṃ. Bhagavā etadavoca –

‘‘Katamo ca, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo? Jātipaccayā, bhikkhave, jarāmaraṇaṃ. Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathāgato abhisambujjhati abhisameti. Abhisambujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha – ‘jātipaccayā, bhikkhave, jarāmaraṇaṃ’’’.

‘‘Bhavapaccayā, bhikkhave, jāti…pe… upādānapaccayā, bhikkhave, bhavo… taṇhāpaccayā, bhikkhave, upādānaṃ… vedanāpaccayā, bhikkhave, taṇhā… phassapaccayā, bhikkhave, vedanā… saḷāyatanapaccayā, bhikkhave, phasso… nāmarūpapaccayā, bhikkhave, saḷāyatanaṃ… viññāṇapaccayā, bhikkhave, nāmarūpaṃ… saṅkhārapaccayā, bhikkhave, viññāṇaṃ… avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathāgato abhisambujjhati abhisameti. Abhisambujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā – ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo.

‘‘Katame ca, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā? Jarāmaraṇaṃ, bhikkhave, aniccaṃ saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammaṃ. Jāti, bhikkhave, aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā. Bhavo, bhikkhave, anicco saṅkhato paṭiccasamuppanno khayadhammo vayadhammo virāgadhammo nirodhadhammo. Upādānaṃ bhikkhave…pe… taṇhā, bhikkhave… vedanā, bhikkhave… phasso, bhikkhave… saḷāyatanaṃ, bhikkhave… nāmarūpaṃ, bhikkhave… viññāṇaṃ, bhikkhave… saṅkhārā, bhikkhave… avijjā, bhikkhave, aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.

‘‘Yato kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa ‘ayañca paṭiccasamuppādo, ime ca paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā’ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhā honti, so vata pubbantaṃ vā paṭidhāvissati – ‘ahosiṃ nu kho ahaṃ [nu khvāhaṃ (syā. kaṃ. pī. ka.)] atītamaddhānaṃ, nanu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ, kiṃ nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ, kathaṃ nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ, kiṃ hutvā kiṃ ahosiṃ nu kho ahaṃ atītamaddhāna’nti; aparantaṃ vā upadhāvissati [apadhāvissati (ka.)] – ‘bhavissāmi nu kho ahaṃ anāgatamaddhānaṃ, nanu kho bhavissāmi anāgatamaddhānaṃ, kiṃ nu kho bhavissāmi anāgatamaddhānaṃ, kathaṃ nu kho bhavissāmi anāgatamaddhānaṃ, kiṃ hutvā kiṃ bhavissāmi nu kho ahaṃ anāgatamaddhāna’nti; etarahi vā paccuppannaṃ addhānaṃ ajjhattaṃ kathaṃkathī bhavissati – ‘ahaṃ nu khosmi, no nu khosmi, kiṃ nu khosmi, kathaṃ nu khosmi, ayaṃ nu kho satto kuto āgato, so kuhiṃ gamissatī’ti – netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. Taṃ kissa hetu? Tathāhi, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa ayañca paṭiccasamuppādo ime ca paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhā’’ti.

S ii 25
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Assaji »

The word implied in this compound is 'paccaya' - (requisite) condition.

"Yaṃ yadeva, bhikkhave, paccayaṃ paṭicca uppajjati viññāṇaṃ, tena teneva viññāṇaṃtveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchati"

M i 258

As for 'pa.ticca', I think the most exact translation would be 'conditioned', as in:

conditioned reflex: an acquired response that is under the control of (conditional on the occurrence of) a stimulus.

'Dependent' is too vague for the exact kind of relation implied, i.e. relation of requisite condition.


As for 'samuppāda', the question is what 'sam-' means here.

Paccaya sutta (presented above) explains 'samuppāda' as simply "uppādā".

Rhys-Davids'es dictionary says that 'sam-' doesn't mean anything special here, so 'samuppaada' is just 'arising'.

In suttas the verb 'samuppajjati' means just 'arises'.

'Origination' does not quite fit phenomena that arise and cease.

So I suggest a translation 'conditioned arising'. It preserves well implied meaning "arising conditioned by conditions", wihout being redundant.

The extended version would be 'arising on the basis of requisite conditions'.

Metta, Dmytro
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Dmytro wrote:So I suggest a translation 'conditioned arising'. It preserves well implied meaning "arising conditioned by conditions", wihout being redundant.

The extended version would be 'arising on the basis of requisite conditions'.

Metta, Dmytro
Thanks, that's useful. I usually think of paticcasamuppada as "dependent arising", ie arising in dependence on requisite conditions. Do you think this captures it as well as "conditioned arising"?

Spiny
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Sobeh »

It's awesome, as I didn't think of Paṭiccasamuppāda as having the linguistic complexity it does. What was Ananda thinking, saying it was easy!
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Sanghamitta »

Very interesting, once more we are in your debt Dymtro.
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Assaji »

Hi Spiny,
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks, that's useful. I usually think of paticcasamuppada as "dependent arising", ie arising in dependence on requisite conditions. Do you think this captures it as well as "conditioned arising"?
Glad this helps. IMHO, "conditioned arising" is more likely to be understood properly, since "dependent" has also a number of other meanings, whereas the primary meaning of 'conditioned' hits the mark.

de·pend·ent

–adjective
1. relying on someone or something else for aid, support, etc.
2. conditioned or determined by something else; contingent: Our trip is dependent on the weather.
3. subordinate; subject: a dependent territory.
4. Grammar . not used in isolation; used only in connection with other forms. In I walked out when the bell rang, when the bell rang is a dependent clause. Compare independent ( def. 14 ) , main1 ( def. 4 ) .
5. hanging down; pendent.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dependent" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


con·di·tioned

–adjective
1. existing under or subject to conditions.
2. characterized by a predictable or consistent pattern of behavior or thought as a result of having been subjected to certain circumstances or conditions.
3. Psychology . proceeding from or dependent on a conditioning of the individual; learned; acquired: conditioned behavior patterns. Compare unconditioned ( def. 2 ) .
4. made suitable for a given purpose.
5. air-conditioned.
6. accustomed; inured.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conditioned" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Spiny,
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks, that's useful. I usually think of paticcasamuppada as "dependent arising", ie arising in dependence on requisite conditions. Do you think this captures it as well as "conditioned arising"?
Glad this helps. IMHO, "conditioned arising" is more likely to be understood properly, since "dependent" has also a number of other meanings, whereas the primary meaning of 'conditioned' hits the mark.
I'm not sure. Is the aspect of dependency essential in paticcasamuppada? To me "conditioned arising" suggests more that B is shaped by A, rather than B arising as a result of A.
Maybe "conditional arising" would capture it better?

Is it worth looking at an example from the 12 links, eg the relationship between feeling and craving?

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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Assaji »

Hi Spiny,
Spiny O'Norman wrote:I'm not sure. Is the aspect of dependency essential in paticcasamuppada? To me "conditioned arising" suggests more that B is shaped by A, rather than B arising as a result of A.
For example, the craving doesn't arise as a result of feeling. Feeling is just a requisite condition without which the craving can't arise.

As Ven. Nyanatiloka writes:
I think that after what you have heard just now, it will not be necessary to tell you that P.S. is not intended, as various scholars in the West have imagined, as an explanation of the primary beginning of all things; and that its first link, avijja or ignorance, is not to be considered the causeless first principle out of which, in the course of time, all physical and conscious life has evolved. P.S. simply teaches the conditionality, or dependent nature, of all the manifold mental and physical phenomena of existence; of everything that happens, be it in the realm of the physical or the mental. P.S. shows that the sum of mental and physical phenomena known by the conventional name "person" or "individual" is not at all the mere play of blind chance; but that each phenomenon in this process of existence is entirely dependent upon other phenomena as conditions; and that therefore with the removal of those phenomena that form the conditions for rebirth and suffering, rebirth and therewith all suffering will necessarily cease and come to an end.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 4.html#ch3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Maybe "conditional arising" would capture it better?
IMHO, this word doesn't convey the relationship with another specific process as the requisite condition.

con·di·tion·al

–adjective
1. imposing, containing, subject to, or depending on a condition or conditions; not absolute; made or allowed on certain terms: conditional acceptance.
2. Grammar . (of a sentence, clause, mood, or word) involving or expressing a condition, as the first clause in the sentence If it rains, he won't go.
3. Logic .
a. (of a proposition) asserting that the existence or occurrence of one thing or event depends on the existence or occurrence of another thing or event; hypothetical.
b. (of a syllogism) containing at least one conditional proposition as a premise.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conditional" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Spiny,

For example, the craving doesn't arise as a result of feeling. Feeling is just a requisite condition without which the craving can't arise.
OK, but if feeling is a requisite condition for craving, isn't this the same as saying that craving arises in dependence on feeling? Or that the arising of craving is conditional on feeling?
Or does it also have the sense that the quality of the feeling affects ("conditions" ) the quality of the craving? So for example a neutral feeling wouldn't lead to craving, whereas a pleasant feeling would?

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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Assaji »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:OK, but if feeling is a requisite condition for craving, isn't this the same as saying that craving arises in dependence on feeling? Or that the arising of craving is conditional on feeling?
Yes, that's another way of formulating it. The question is which word would be more to the point.
Or does it also have the sense that the quality of the feeling affects ("conditions" ) the quality of the craving? So for example a neutral feeling wouldn't lead to craving, whereas a pleasant feeling would?
It seems that you imply the meaning:

con·di·tioned
2. characterized by a predictable or consistent pattern of behavior or thought as a result of having been subjected to certain circumstances or conditions.
3. Psychology . proceeding from or dependent on a conditioning of the individual; learned; acquired: conditioned behavior patterns.

while the primary meaning is:

con·di·tioned
1. existing under or subject to conditions.

Dmytro
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Sylvester »

Adding to Dmytro's 3rd post with some new data.

See Norman's discussion about these types of "syntactical compounds" at p.3 onwards here - https://books.google.com.sg/books?id=gb ... es&f=false

Norman discusses Hendriksen's (p.157 - 158, Syntax of the Infinite verb-forms of Pali) analysis of another such compound, viz. viceyyadāna, and points out that it is irregular since the noun dāna does not have a subject. Norman echos Hendriksen's proposal -
such compounds should rather be interpreted as having developed from combinations of a verb-form and an absolutive belonging to it, and we must assume that the origin of this particular compound lies in the statement viceyya dānaṃ dadāti "having considered, he gives a gift".
If we now apply this analysis to paṭiccasamuppāda, where might we find such an origin? Dymtro points to -
Yaṃ yadeva, bhikkhave, paccayaṃ paṭicca uppajjati viññāṇaṃ, tena teneva viññāṇantveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchati.

Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises.

MN 38, per BB
A similar structure might be seen in MN 146's "Tajjaṃ tajjaṃ, bhante, paccayaṃ paṭicca tajjā tajjā vedanā uppajjanti".

If this is correct, paṭiccasamuppāda should be read as a shortened form for "an arising having depended upon a paccaya". I do realise the "having depended upon" is too literal a rendering of the absolutive paṭicca, but I thought it would be less confusing than "depending upon", since that would be like placing a gerund right next to the verbal noun "arising".

I'm still nervous about "conditioned arising", as some translations of a related phrase lead to "A arises conditioned by B". In English, this "conditioned by" does not suggest the full import of dependency upon a necessary condition. It could quite easily be read in a phenomenological sense that the cause conditions the result, ie "conditioned" is read as the past participle of the transitive verb "conditions" (which does not seem to exist in Pali). But nowhere in the suttas (except perhaps SN 22.79's abhi­saṅ­kha­roti) is such a reading warranted.

I do, however, like Dmytro's suggestion of "conditional on the occurrence of". But how many readers actually understand paṭicca in this manner?

In fact, central to this conditionality is the existential locative absolute used in idappaccayatā -
imasmiṃ sati...
I believe Wijesekara hits the nail on the head when he opines that this means "if, on condition that" (p.238, Syntax of the Cases in the Pali Nikayas). Nowhere is this more clearly brought out than in DN 15 -
Jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇan’ti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, tadānanda, imināpetaṃ pariyāyena veditabbaṃ, yathā jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ. Jāti ca hi, ānanda, nābhavissa sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ kassaci kimhici, seyyathidaṃ— devānaṃ vā devattāya, gandhabbānaṃ vā gandhabbattāya, yakkhānaṃ vā yakkhattāya, bhūtānaṃ vā bhūtattāya, manussānaṃ vā manussattāya, catuppadānaṃ vā catuppadattāya, pakkhīnaṃ vā pakkhittāya, sarīsapānaṃ vā sarīsapattāya
, tesaṃ tesañca hi, ānanda, sattānaṃ tadattāya jāti nābhavissa. Sabbaso jātiyā asati jātinirodhā api nu kho jarāmaraṇaṃ paññāyethā”ti? “No hetaṃ, bhante”. “Tasmātihānanda, eseva hetu etaṃ nidānaṃ esa samudayo esa paccayo jarāmaraṇassa, yadidaṃ jāti.

It was said: ‘With birth as condition there is aging and death.’ How that is so, Ānanda, should be understood in this way: If there were absolutely and utterly no birth of any kind anywhere—that is, of gods into the state of gods, of celestials into the state of celestials, of spirits, demons, human beings, quadrupeds, winged creatures, and reptiles, each into their own state—if there were no birth of beings of any sort into any state, then, in the complete absence of birth, with the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?”
“Certainly not, venerable sir.”
“Therefore, Ānanda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for aging and death, namely, birth.
Notice how the 2nd Noble Truth is being defined in the language of the 3rd Noble Truth.
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Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by ToVincent »

Paṭicca-samuppāda
"This particular compound has generated a heated controversy among Buddhists interested in grammar,..."
---
"The usual translation "dependent origination" is meaningless and ungrammatical, besides being not very intelligent considering the canonical context,...."
Dr. Ole Holten Pind.
Maybe because no one ever thought to turn towards the corresponding Sanskrit equivalent; namely:
pratītya-sam-ut-pāda (as in SF 163).

Note that "ignorance"(avijja) is the starting point of it all, (and that (complete) knowledge (vijja) is the ultimate goal).

¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
Paṭicca = pratītya
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦

First, let see what pratītya is all about.

Pratītya is the future passive participle of "pratī".
Future passive participle are translated as "to be xxxxed" .
So let see what pratī means, in the pre and contemporary literature around Buddha's time.

प्रतीत्य pratītya [fpp. pratī]

प्रती pratī [prati-√ इ i ]
- to come back, return RV. ;
- to resort or apply to RV. AV. ŚBr. ;
- to admit, recognize, be certain of GṛŚrS.
- known, understood, implicit Pāṇ.
- to be admitted or recognized Śaṃk. ~
- to make clear, prove Śaṃk. ~
- Desid. [ pratīṣiṣati ], to wish or try to understand Pāṇ.


प्रति prati [ práti ] ind. ( as a prefix to roots and their derivative nouns and other nouns, sometimes [ pratī ].
- towards, near to.


√ इ i
pf. (ati, adhi, anu, antar, apa, abhi, ava, ā, ut, upa, ni, parā, pari, pra, prati, vi, sam)

- to go , walk ; to flow ; to blow ; to advance , spread , get about ; to go to or towards ( with acc.) , come RV. AV. ŚBr. MBh.
- to go away , escape , pass , retire RV. AV. ŚBr.
- to arise from , come from RV. ChUp.
- to return ( in this sense only fut.) MBh.
- to arrive at , reach , obtain RV. AV. ŚBr.
- to appear , be KaṭhUp.
- to appear , make one's appearance RV. AV. BṛĀrUp.

Pass. [ ī́yate ] , to be asked or requested RV.


So as a past passive participle, we would have such ("Sanskrito-English") translations as:
1. prati-√ इ i
------------------
- to be returned - towards to.
- to be flown, to be spread, (to be gone towards) - towards to.
- to be gone away (passed) - towards to.
- to be arisen from - towards to.
- to be obtained - towards to.
- to be "appeared" - towards to.



2. pratī(tya)
-----------------
- "to be come back (at), to be returned (to)" RV.
- "to be resorted or to be applied to" RV. AV. ŚBr.
- "to be admited, to be recognized, to be (made) certain of" GṛŚrS.
- "to be known, to be understood, to be (made) implicit" Pāṇ.
- ~ "to be admitted or to be recognized" Śaṃk. ~
- ~ "to be made clear, to be proven" Śaṃk. ~


For instance, the first pratī's definition (viz. "to be come back , to be returned" RV.) can be found in the following (as a karma retribution):
Today Sīha the general has slain a plump animal to prepare a meal for the ascetic Gotama! The ascetic Gotama knowingly uses meat obtained from an animal killed especially for his sake, a deed that will come back at him (viz. to be returned to him).
Ajja sīhena senāpatinā thūlaṃ pasuṃ vadhitvā samaṇassa gotamassa bhattaṃ kataṃ. Taṃ samaṇo gotamo jānaṃ uddissakataṃ maṃsaṃ paribhuñjati paṭiccakamman”ti.
AN 8.12


The second definitions (namely, "to be resorted" [viz. to proceed towards], "to be flown towards") have to do with the arising and fading (perishing), as we will see below.

And the third definitions (namely, "to be obtained - towards to" (vijja) - "to be admited, to be recognized, to be (made) certain of" - "to be known, to be understood, to be (made) implicit" - have to do with the knowledge (vijja) acquired through "actualization" (the universal philosophical notion of actual VS potential).


¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
Samuppāda = samutpāda
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦

One should break up paṭiccasamupāda & paṭicasamupanna in their constituent parts (e.g. roots).

Uppāda [Sk. ud + pad]
patica + sam + ud + pad.

::::::::::::::::::::
उद् ud
:::::::::::::::::::::
to flow or issue out RV. AV. ŚBr. KātyŚr.

::::::::::::::::::::
पद् pad
::::::::::::::::::::
- to fall, fall down or out, perish RV. AV. VS. Br.
- to cause to fall AV. AitBr.


-------------

उत्पद् utpad [ ut-√ pad = ud-√ pad ]
- to arise, rise, originate, be born or produced ; to come forth, become visible, appear ; to be ready ŚBr. MBh. Mn.
- to produce, beget, generate ; to cause, effect ; to cause to issue or come forth, bring forward MBh. Mn.

--------------

समुत्पाद samutpāda [act. samutpād]

समुत्पाद् samutpād [***causative*** of samutpad]

समुत्पद् samutpad [ sam-ut-√ pad ] - (pp. samutpanna)
- to spring up together , be brought forth or born of (loc.) , arise , appear , occur , take place , happen MBh.
- to cause to arise , produce , effect , cause MBh.

उत्पद् utpad [ut-pad] - pp. (utpanna)
- to arise , rise , originate , be born or produced ; to come forth , become visible , appear ; to be ready ŚBr. MBh. Mn.
- to cause , effect ; to cause to issue or come forth , bring forward MBh. Mn.

√ उद् ud (ut)
to flow or issue out RV. AV. ŚBr. KātyŚr.

√ पद् pad
- to fall, fall down or out, perish RV. AV. VS. Br.
- to cause to fall AV. AitBr.

√ पद् pad - pp. (panna)
- aller, marcher
- tomber.

सम् sam
- together


¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
CHINESE
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦

Paṭicca-samuppāda

Usually written as:
緣起: to arise on a condition.

Also written as:

緣生: produced by causal condition.

因緣生: generated from causes and conditions

With:
緣: condition
起: to arise
因: a cause (nidāna)
生: arising



|||||||||||||||||||||¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
(Paṭicca -) Sam - uppanna = (pratītya -) sam-utpanna
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦

Samutappana = समुत्पन्न samutpanna
“So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, and sprung together (viz. the khandhas) to appear - that is impermanent /not yours (both are the definitions of anicca). Whatever is impermanent/not yours is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, and submit yourself to that very stress.”

“Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, and sprung together (viz. the khandhas) to appear - that is impermanent/not yours. Whatever is impermanent/not yours is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present.”


“Yaṃ kho, gahapati, kiñci bhūtaṃ saṅkhataṃ cetayitaṃ paṭic­ca­samup­pannaṃ tadaniccaṃ. Yadaniccaṃ taṃ dukkhaṃ. Yaṃ dukkhaṃ tadeva tvaṃ, gahapati, allīno, tadeva tvaṃ, gahapati, ajjhupagato”ti.

“Yaṃ kho, bhante, kiñci bhūtaṃ saṅkhataṃ cetayitaṃ paṭic­ca­samup­pannaṃ tadaniccaṃ. Yadaniccaṃ taṃ dukkhaṃ. ‘Yaṃ dukkhaṃ taṃ netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, nameso attā’ti—evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ. Tassa ca uttari nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāmī”ti.
AN 10.93

Pali:
Uppanna, [pp.of uppajjati]

Sanskrit:
panna m. n. pannā
Past Passive Participle


समुत्पन्न samutpanna [ sam-utpanna - [pp. samutpad] ]
- sprung up together, arisen, produced, begotten by (abl.) or on (loc.), occurred, happened, taken place Mn. MBh.

उत्पन्न utpanna [ ut-panna ]
- arisen, born, produced Mn.

पन्न panna
- fallen, fallen down, gone.

_________________

Also:

¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
Paccaya, [Ved.pratyaya]
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦

प्रत्यय pratyaya [act. pratī - see above] .
- ground , basis , motive or cause of anything MBh. (no pre or contemporary Buddhist's reference; afaik).
- proof, ascertainment Mn. MBh.


________________


CONCLUSION:

If Paṭicca-samuppāda & Paṭicca-samuppana have anything to do with Paccaya & Sankhata, the latter two words do not seem to include their meanings in the strict definition of the former two. Indeed the "cause" is found in samutpād, the causative of the "active" samutpad.
And if samuppāda is the "active-causative" (what causes) ; samuppana is the "passive-"effected"" (what has been produced").

Paṭicca-Samuppāda means:
What springs together [flows out & perishes] (samuppāda/samutpāda), to (appear and) be understood (paṭicca/pratītya).
&
Paṭicca-Samuppanna means:
What has sprung together [flown out & perished] (samuppanna/samutpanna), to (appear and) be understood (paṭicca/pratītya).


Note on the side that SN12. 20/ SA 296 / SF163 are very poor parallels.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by ToVincent »

Another approach to paticcasamuppada
________________________________________

7
That turns out there - that calls,
From the coming forth of that, this originates.
That doesn’t turn out, this does not call,
Due to the cessation of that there, this ceases.

Imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti,
Imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati.
Imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti,
Imassa nirodhā idaṃ nirujjhati
That turns out (there*) - this calls upon,
Imasmiṃ sati - idaṃ hoti.


* There: that is to say in the previous nidāna.
E.g. When the nāmarūpa turns out (becomes, and tends towards a result), the saḷāyatana nidāna calls upon it.
Nāmarūpe asati - saḷāyatanaṃ na hoti 'SN 12.49)

Imasmiṃ = locative singular, of the demonstrative pronoun "it”, "this”..
Sati = locative of the present participle of √ as = to turn out , tend towards any result , to become (BṛĀrUp.).
Idaṃ = nominative singular of the demonstrative pronoun "it”, "this”.
Hoti = Hoti (from hū (√hve) = to call , call upon , summon , challenge , invoke )


From the coming forth (viz. by falling down,) of that, this originates;
Imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati/b]
√ पद् pad
- to fall, fall down or out, perish RV. AV. VS. Br.
- to cause to fall AV. AitBr.

Utpad [ut-pad]
- to originate , be produced ; to come forth , become visible , appear ŚBr. MBh.


____________

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Other uses of hoti as hū (√hve):
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Note that in Warder, "hoti" ( that he considers to be coming from bhū, is declined in almost all tenses.
E.g. sace agaram ajjhdvasati, raja hoti = if he lives at home he will be a king, (or he will be called a king).
Note also that, in this example, Warder is already using the more proper defintion of hoti, as "called" in his parenthesis.

“Here, bhikkhus, a meditator is called skilled in resolve but not a duly (careful) worker…"
“samādhismiṃ abhinīhārakusalo hoti, na samādhismiṃ sakkaccakārī..."
SN 34.50

“Faith is called a person’s partner.
Saddhā dutiyā purisassa hoti.
SN 1.59


“Bhikkhus, when one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, this calls upon the stepping down of name-and-form.
“Saṃyojaniyesu, bhikkhave, dhammesu assādānupassino viharato nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti.
SN 12.58

Etc.

https://justpaste.it/7pxwe
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Pali Term: Paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by ToVincent »

Just correcting this error, and adding this
That turns out there - this calls,
From the coming forth of that, this originates.
That doesn’t turn out, this does not call,
Due to the cessation of that there, this ceases.

Imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti,
Imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati.
Imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti,
Imassa nirodhā idaṃ nirujjhati
----------

Note that in Warder, "hoti" ( that he considers to be coming from bhū — although he also considers it to be from hū ?!?!?) — is declined in almost all tenses.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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