Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by DNS »

retrofuturist wrote: Really? I think the examples you give in your opening post in this topic are simply frames of reference by which to classify and be mindful of mental objects.
Hi retro,

What's the difference? The frames of reference appear to be Dhamma concepts and teachings. And then we attempt to be mindful of how they arise and fade away, for example the hindrances, factors of enlightenment, etc.
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings TheDhamma,

I think the distinction is... is it mindfulness of the Dhamma, or is it is mindfulness of mental objects?

The Dhamma is the framework, and the mental objects are the observable reality.

The dhamma (mental objects) are observed using the Dhamma.

If it did mean Dhamma (capital D), then all four frames of reference could justifiably be called Dhammanupassana, since they all involve using mindfulness based on the Dhamma... but they're not all called Dhammanupassana... only this one.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by tiltbillings »

What do you mean by Dhamma (capital D)?
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings TheDhamma,

I think the distinction is... is it mindfulness of the Dhamma, or is it is mindfulness of mental objects?

The Dhamma is the framework, and the mental objects are the observable reality.

The dhamma (mental objects) are observed using the Dhamma.

If it did mean Dhamma (capital D), then all four frames of reference could justifiably be called Dhammanupassana, since they all involve using mindfulness based on the Dhamma... but they're not all called Dhammanupassana... only this one.

Metta,
Retro. :)
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

Whilst I know that there is no capitalization in Pali, conventional use attributes (upper-case) Dhamma to the Law or Doctrine or Teaching or Norm etc, and (lower-case) dhamma to all other applications, such as mental objects, "thing" etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by zavk »

tiltbillings wrote:What do you mean by Dhamma (capital D)?
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings TheDhamma,

I think the distinction is... is it mindfulness of the Dhamma, or is it is mindfulness of mental objects?

The Dhamma is the framework, and the mental objects are the observable reality.

The dhamma (mental objects) are observed using the Dhamma.

If it did mean Dhamma (capital D), then all four frames of reference could justifiably be called Dhammanupassana, since they all involve using mindfulness based on the Dhamma... but they're not all called Dhammanupassana... only this one.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Ermm... can I just say that reading this exchange about Dhamma vs. dhamma vis-a-vis what TheDhamma has said about the Dhamma/dhamma made me smile. :tongue:

:focus:
With metta,
zavk
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings TheDhamma,

I think the distinction is... is it mindfulness of the Dhamma, or is it is mindfulness of mental objects?
Mental objects, but when one sees dhammas - "in the seen just the seen" - one sees Dhamma, Truth - anicca, dukkha, anatta, paticassaumpdada. But what is seeing is not doctrine or concepts, but the reality of the conditioned rise and fall of what is perceived.
The Dhamma is the framework, and the mental objects are the observable reality.

The dhamma (mental objects) are observed using the Dhamma.
Dhamma as teaching is a tool to guide the seeing towards "in the seen just the seen:, which is different from Dhamma as truth as a result of seeing clearly.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

Agreed.
Dhamma as teaching is a tool to guide the seeing towards "in the seen just the seen:, which is different from Dhamma as truth as a result of seeing clearly.
Good point. I wasn't thinking of Dhamma against that definition, but that is of course true. Even using the definition of Dhamma as the truth of the way things are, what I said here still applies.
If it did mean Dhamma (capital D), then all four frames of reference could justifiably be called Dhammanupassana, since they all involve using mindfulness based on the Dhamma... but they're not all called Dhammanupassana... only this one.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by Reductor »

smokey wrote:I have been reading on how to contemplate: Five Hindrances, Six Sense Bases, Five Aggregates and Factors of enlightenment in that book. But it is not said in the book how to contemlate certain aspects of the teaching (Dhamma)?
So my question would be how does one contemplate Nibbana and how does one contemplate certain aspects of teaching (Dhamma)?
Well, I would discourage you from contemplating Nibbana as an object in itself. Just set that goal aside.

As for contemplating certain aspects of the teaching, in the sense of contemplating the teachings, I think you would have to have read widely first, then watch what is going on in your mind. When a mental object comes up you look at it and take it as a starting point into the teachings your recall. If it is one sensuality you would recall any teachings of sensuality and their drawbacks, and how those draw backs fit into the over all scheme of suffering. Here you would recall as much Dhamma as you can, and see what that Dhamma says about that mental object, and try and understand WHY it says it.

That is my only suggestion.

Back to Nibbana:

From: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
83. Another comparison

"The paths, fruitions, and nibbana are personal: You can truly see them only for yourself. Those who practice to that level will see them for themselves, will be clear about them for themselves, will totally end all their doubts about the Buddha's teaching. If you haven't reached that level, all you can do is keep on guessing. No matter how profoundly someone else may explain them to you, your knowledge about them will be guesswork. Whatever is guesswork will have to be uncertain.

"It's like the turtle and the fish. The turtle lives in two worlds: the world on land and the world in the water. As for the fish, it lives only in one world, the water. If it were to get on land, it would die.

"One day, when a turtle came down into the water, it told a group of fish about how much fun it was to be on land: The lights and colors were pretty, and there were none of the difficulties that came from being in the water.

"The fish were intrigued, and wanted to see what it was like on land, so they asked the turtle, 'Is it very deep on land?'

"The turtle answered, 'What would be deep about it? It's land.'

"The fish: 'Are there lots of waves on land?'

"The turtle: 'What would be wavy about it? It's land.'

"The fish: 'Is it murky with mud?'

"The turtle: 'What would be murky about it? It's land.'

"Notice the questions asked by the fish. They simply take their experience of water to ask the turtle, and the turtle can do nothing but say no.

"The mind of a run-of-the-mill person guessing about the paths, fruitions, and nibbana is no different from the fish."
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by smokey »

Has anyone learned about what I asked in this thread?
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Smokey,
smokey wrote:Has anyone learned about what I asked in this thread?
Which specific aspect... I see you've made a few posts, with a few questions... perhaps you could summarise "where you're at"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by smokey »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Smokey,
smokey wrote:Has anyone learned about what I asked in this thread?
Which specific aspect... I see you've made a few posts, with a few questions... perhaps you could summarise "where you're at"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
For an example how to contemplate emptiness, Nibbana etc.? What I mean is how to contemplate certain aspects of the teaching?
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by Cittasanto »

http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2009/10/dh ... event.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here is an FWBO blog sent to m by a Bhikkhu friend of mine regarding how Dhamma should be translated. the blog seams to be fairly well researched on the research done into the meaning.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by Assaji »

Hi Smokey,
smokey wrote:I have a question. How to practice Mindfulness of Mental Objects (Dhammanupassana)?
Since mental qualities (dhamma) are instantly manifested in the qualities of inbreath and outbreath, an excellent starting point is noticing the attitude to inbreath and outbreath.

See the instructions in Patisambhidamagga:

"(i) By avoiding consciousness which runs after the past (breaths) and is attacked by distraction, (consciousness) is concentrated in one place.

(ii) By avoiding consciousness which looks forward to the future (breaths) and is attacked by wavering, (consciousness) is fixed (there).

(iii) By exerting slack consciousness attacked by indolence, one abandons indolence.

(iv) By restraining over-exerted consciousness attacked by agitation, one abandons agitation.

(v) By being clearly comprehending about consciousness which is attracted and attacked by greed, one abandons greed.

(vi) By being clearly comprehending about consciousness which is discontented and attacked by ill will, one abandons ill will."

http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_p ... c166300489" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by Assaji »

Hi Smokey,
smokey wrote:For an example how to contemplate emptiness, Nibbana etc.? What I mean is how to contemplate certain aspects of the teaching?
IMHO, there's no need to overcomplicate 'dhammanupassana'. Essentially, that's contemplation of mental qualities, either skillful (kusala) or unskillful (akusala), as in discrimination of mental qualities (dhamma-vicaya):

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of analysis of qualities... once it has arisen? There are mental qualities that are skillful & unskillful, blameworthy & blameless, gross & refined, siding with darkness & with light. To foster appropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of analysis of qualities... once it has arisen."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another essential feature of 'dhammanupassana' is that one learns to track the dynamics of mental qualities, their prerequisites and causes. The Four Thruths of the Noble (ariya-sacca) and Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) provide a framework for such cause-and-effect research.

http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by Pulsar »

Ben wrote
Within the tradition that I practice, its not a practice for beginners. Dhammanupassana, is observation of the mental contents as they are. In my experience, Dhammanupassana, arises spontaneously when I have a certain depth of samadhi and when my mind has been prepared (for want of a better word) by my main technique, vedananupassana.
Metta


Ben
What is the tradition within which you practice? It is fascinating that this tradition teaches Dhammanupassana in this manner. I have seriously begun to think, that Dhammanupassana can only be engaged in, once one has successfully completed, Kaya, Vedana, and Cittanupassana.
At the end of the first three contemplations, mind is no more impacted by Sanna creating nama-rupa. Satipathana is basically investigating Dependent origination, and eliminating contact, sensation and creation of mind moments (nama-rupa) by the end of 3rd Reference.
To me it appears to be very similar to the state of 4th jhana, simply a different approach.
According to your tradition how does this sound? Pl tell me. I have no doubt regarding
this.
Be well, I so appreciate your comment.
:candle:
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