The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by Dhammanando »

frank k wrote:On a related question, why are there no buddha images and statues where he looks like a bhikkhu wearing a vinaya compliant robe and hair that is less than 1 inch long?
Shakyamuni images in which he is depicted in a Vinaya-compliant patchwork robe are actually quite common in Tibetan statues and line drawings.

That the Buddha isn't normally shown with a shaven head probably reflects the wish of artists to emphasize his status as a mahāpuruṣa rather than as a śramaṇa. You can't do both: either you make him a skinhead ascetic or you depict him (as far as is artistically possible) in full possession of the thirty-two major and eighty minor marks of a great man; several of the minor marks have to do with his head-hairs.

Having said that, I do recall seeing sketches of a shaven-headed Buddha used as illustrations in a number of 19th century English and American works on the Buddha and his teaching. I think Warren's Buddhism in Translation was one of them.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by Aloka »

Some interesting comments "On the 32 marks" and the Buddha's appearance, from Bhikkhu Sujato:

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/04/06 ... -32-marks/



:anjali:
srkris
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:36 am

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by srkris »

thomaslaw wrote:Is it possible the racial appearance of the Buddha was 'non-Aryan', thus being called 'vasala' by the Brahmin?
What the Brahmin says is "tatreva muṇḍaka tatreva samaṇaka tatreva vasalaka - tiṭṭhāhi" - which literally means "Right there you bald-one, right there you ascetic, right there you low-life - stop (do not come any closer)!"

The buddha then gives him a lecture about the types of persons who are fit to be called vasala (low-life)... hence the name of the sutta (vasala sutta) and finally says birth does not make someone low, and the same birth does not confer brahminhood either. It is only by deeds that one becomes a vasala or a brahmin.

Thus it is clear that both the vasalas and the brahmins were part of the same 'heirarchical' society, and a 'vasala' may be anyone who is perceived to be of much lower birth than a brahmin within that society.

The bulk of the evidence from the Pali canon indicates that not only did the Buddha regard himself as Indo-Aryan (and called his path to Nibbana as the "arya atthangika magga" i.e. the Aryan eightfold path) but also (going by his intimate knowledge of the Vedic texts which were held by the Brahmins as their secret possession) that he had significant access to Brahmanical philosophy and religious knowledge and must have therefore possibly been a Brahmin himself or, being a Kshatriya (royal) studied under a Brahmin in his youth.
thomaslaw
Posts: 808
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by thomaslaw »

srkris wrote:
thomaslaw wrote:Is it possible the racial appearance of the Buddha was 'non-Aryan', thus being called 'vasala' by the Brahmin?
What the Brahmin says is "tatreva muṇḍaka tatreva samaṇaka tatreva vasalaka - tiṭṭhāhi" - which literally means "Right there you bald-one, right there you ascetic, right there you low-life - stop (do not come any closer)!"

... Thus it is clear that both the vasalas and the brahmins were part of the same 'heirarchical' society, and a 'vasala' may be anyone who is perceived to be of much lower birth than a brahmin within that society.

The bulk of the evidence from the Pali canon indicates that not only did the Buddha regard himself as Indo-Aryan (and called his path to Nibbana as the "arya atthangika magga" i.e. the Aryan eightfold path) but also (going by his intimate knowledge of the Vedic texts which were held by the Brahmins as their secret possession) that he had significant access to Brahmanical philosophy and religious knowledge and must have therefore possibly been a Brahmin himself or, being a Kshatriya (royal) studied under a Brahmin in his youth.
---------
Dear Srkris (and all),

Could you give your Pali evidence that the Buddha regarded himself as Indo-Aryan? Thanks.

The term Aryan used in 'arya atthangika magga' does not refer to the path of Aryan race.

Also, being a Kshatriya, or accessing to the Brahmanical study, does not mean the 'racial appearance' of the Buddha must be an Aryan. E.g. the kingdom called Videha (capital city: Mithilaa), whose people were not Aryans.

Regards,

Thomas
srkris
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:36 am

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by srkris »

thomaslaw wrote:Could you give your Pali evidence that the Buddha regarded himself as Indo-Aryan?
Buddha (DN3: Ambaṭṭha Sutta): "The rāja Okkāka is the ancestor of the sakyas."

Okkāka (Ikṣvāku) was a famous Vedic (pre-buddhist) king mentioned in the Ṛgveda and in many other pre-buddhist texts. The buddha traces his descent from this king.
The term Aryan used in 'arya atthangika magga' does not refer to the path of Aryan race.
In the Buddha's day, it did very much primarily refer to the Indo-Aryan ethnicity & its culture in India (and in nearby Achaemenid Persia it was used in pretty much the same sense, as an ethnic self-designation of the Persians). By calling it the Aryan eightfold path, the buddha was emphasizing that it was in accord with the high culture and ideals of the Aryan community, and was therefore not vile or blameworthy. As Buddhism in the centuries following the buddha's time became internationalized (spread to Sri Lanka and other countries), the ethnic sense was lost, and it was interpreted as an ethical ideal.

This is what the PTS Dictionary says:

Ariya (adj. -- n.) [Vedic ārya, of uncertain etym. The other Pāli forms are ayira & ayya]
1. (racial) Aryan D ii.87. <->
2. (social) noble, distinguished, of high birth. --
3. (ethical) in accord with the customs and ideals of the Aryan clans, held in esteem by Aryans, generally approved. Hence: right, good, ideal.

When the commentators, many centuries afterwards, began to write Pali in S. India & Ceylon, far from the ancient seat of the Aryan clans, the racial sense of the word ariya was scarcely, if at all, present to their minds. Dhammapāla especially was probably a non -- Aryan, and certainly lived in a Dravidian environment. The then current similar popular etmologies of ariya and arahant (cp. next article) also assisted the confusion in their minds. They sometimes therefore erroneously identify the two words and explain Aryans as meaning Arahants (DhA i.230; SnA 537; PvA 60). In other ways also they misrepresented the old texts by ignoring the racial force of the word. Thus at J v.48 the text, speaking of a hunter belonging to one of the aboriginal tribes, calls him anariya -- rūpa. The C. explains this as "shameless", but what the text has, is simply that he looked like a non -- Aryan. (cp ʻ frank ʼ in English).

Also, being a Kshatriya, or accessing to the Brahmanical study, does not mean the 'racial appearance' of the Buddha must be an Aryan.
I see this as empty speculation.
the kingdom called Videha (capital city: Mithilaa), whose people were not Aryans.
Said who?
thomaslaw
Posts: 808
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by thomaslaw »

srkris wrote:
thomaslaw wrote:Could you give your Pali evidence that the Buddha regarded himself as Indo-Aryan?
Buddha (DN3: Ambaṭṭha Sutta): "The rāja Okkāka is the ancestor of the sakyas."

Okkāka (Ikṣvāku) was a famous Vedic (pre-buddhist) king mentioned in the Ṛgveda and in many other pre-buddhist texts. The buddha traces his descent from this king.

Thomas: I think this as empty speculation.
The term Aryan used in 'arya atthangika magga' does not refer to the path of Aryan race.
In the Buddha's day, it did very much primarily refer to the Indo-Aryan ethnicity & its culture in India (and in nearby Achaemenid Persia it was used in pretty much the same sense, as an ethnic self-designation of the Persians). By calling it the Aryan eightfold path, the buddha was emphasizing that it was in accord with the high culture and ideals of the Aryan community, and was therefore not vile or blameworthy. As Buddhism in the centuries following the buddha's time became internationalized (spread to Sri Lanka and other countries), the ethnic sense was lost, and it was interpreted as an ethical ideal.

This is what the PTS Dictionary says:

Ariya (adj. -- n.) [Vedic ārya, of uncertain etym. The other Pāli forms are ayira & ayya]
1. (racial) Aryan D ii.87. <->
2. (social) noble, distinguished, of high birth. --
3. (ethical) in accord with the customs and ideals of the Aryan clans, held in esteem by Aryans, generally approved. Hence: right, good, ideal.

When the commentators, many centuries afterwards, began to write Pali in S. India & Ceylon, far from the ancient seat of the Aryan clans, the racial sense of the word ariya was scarcely, if at all, present to their minds. Dhammapāla especially was probably a non -- Aryan, and certainly lived in a Dravidian environment. The then current similar popular etmologies of ariya and arahant (cp. next article) also assisted the confusion in their minds. They sometimes therefore erroneously identify the two words and explain Aryans as meaning Arahants (DhA i.230; SnA 537; PvA 60). In other ways also they misrepresented the old texts by ignoring the racial force of the word. Thus at J v.48 the text, speaking of a hunter belonging to one of the aboriginal tribes, calls him anariya -- rūpa. The C. explains this as "shameless", but what the text has, is simply that he looked like a non -- Aryan. (cp ʻ frank ʼ in English).


Thomas: It certainly does not mean that the ethnic/racial sense being used for the eightfold path (for the cessation of dukkha).
Also, being a Kshatriya, or accessing to the Brahmanical study, does not mean the 'racial appearance' of the Buddha must be an Aryan.
I see this as empty speculation.

Thomas: No it is not. E.g. those who speak only English do not mean they must be English persons.
the kingdom called Videha (capital city: Mithilaa), whose people were not Aryans.
Said who?[/quote]

Thomas : You may try to do some studies about the kingdom of Videha.
Here two cf: A History of India (1990; by Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund), pp. 50 ff), and 'Appendix 1: Historical and Textual Background of Buddhism' in the book, Annotated Translation of Sutras from the Chinese Samyuktaagama relevant to the Early Buddhism Teachings on Emptiness and the Middle Way (reprinted 2010, by Mun-keat Choong), pp. 80, 82).

Thomas
srkris
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:36 am

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by srkris »

thomaslaw wrote:
srkris wrote:Buddha (DN3: Ambaṭṭha Sutta): "The rāja Okkāka is the ancestor of the sakyas."

Okkāka (Ikṣvāku) was a famous Vedic (pre-buddhist) king mentioned in the Ṛgveda and in many other pre-buddhist texts. The buddha traces his descent from this king.
Thomas: I think this as empty speculation.
I was just quoting from a sutta. If you think the buddha was lying or speculating about his clan's Indo-Aryan origins (as recorded in the sutta), that is your wish.
Thomas: It certainly does not mean that the ethnic/racial sense being used for the eightfold path (for the cessation of dukkha).
The PTS dictionary (as I've quoted above) says it was originally used in an ethnic/racial sense. You say it was not, again maybe you know better.
Thomas: No it is not. E.g. those who speak only English do not mean they must be English persons.
If you think there were non-Indo-Aryan Brahmins and Kshatriyas in the Buddha's time and place, and that the Buddha himself might have been one, well that is certainly a novel idea. But I dont see any evidences in favour of your idea.
Thomas : You may try to do some studies about the kingdom of Videha.
Here two cf: A History of India (1990; by Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund), pp. 50 ff), and 'Appendix 1: Historical and Textual Background of Buddhism' in the book, Annotated Translation of Sutras from the Chinese Samyuktaagama relevant to the Early Buddhism Teachings on Emptiness and the Middle Way (reprinted 2010, by Mun-keat Choong), pp. 80, 82).
:thanks: I'll have a look, but it surely seems to be a new idea.
thomaslaw
Posts: 808
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by thomaslaw »

Dear srkris,
srkris wrote: Okkāka (Ikṣvāku) was a famous Vedic (pre-buddhist) king mentioned in the Ṛgveda and in many other pre-buddhist texts. The buddha traces his descent from this king.
I was just quoting from a sutta. If you think the buddha was lying or speculating about his clan's Indo-Aryan origins (as recorded in the sutta), that is your wish.

Thomas: Which sutta records 'the Buddha traces his descent from this king', who is Indo-Aryan race'?
Thomas: It certainly does not mean that the ethnic/racial sense being used for the eightfold path (for the cessation of dukkha).
The PTS dictionary (as I've quoted above) says it was originally used in an ethnic/racial sense. You say it was not, again maybe you know better.

Thomas: I think your quotations clearly do not support that 'originally' used in ethnic/racial sense for the eightfold path by the Buddha.
Thomas: No it is not. E.g. those who speak only English do not mean they must be English persons.
If you think there were non-Indo-Aryan Brahmins and Kshatriyas in the Buddha's time and place, and that the Buddha himself might have been one, well that is certainly a novel idea. But I dont see any evidences in favour of your idea.

Thomas: Another e.g.: Brahmins and Kshatriyas in 'Tamil' Hinduism are not Indo-Aryan race.
Thomas : You may try to do some studies about the kingdom of Videha.
Here two cf: A History of India (1990; by Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund), pp. 50 ff), and 'Appendix 1: Historical and Textual Background of Buddhism' in the book, Annotated Translation of Sutras from the Chinese Samyuktaagama relevant to the Early Buddhism Teachings on Emptiness and the Middle Way (reprinted 2010, by Mun-keat Choong), pp. 80, 82).
:thanks: I'll have a look, but it surely seems to be a new idea.[/quote]

Thomas: No, it is not a new idea.

Regards,

Thomas
jalsrix
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:04 pm

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by jalsrix »

There were non Indo-Aryan in Nepal long before the Indo-Aryan came so it's not a novel idea.

Click on link below.

http://eastasiaorigin.blogspot.com/2017 ... se_10.html
jalsrix
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:04 pm

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by jalsrix »

Regarding the debate of whether he was Mongoloid or Indo-Iranian, please remember that the Buddhist sutras were written 500 years after his death.

So it's highly possible that the Indian disciples decided to 'Indianised' him even though he's originally wasn't an Indo-Aryan by giving him a Sanskrit name etc.

There are many interesting debate at this link below and you can form your opinions on who is correct or wrong.

https://www.quora.com/Was-Gautama-Buddha-mongoloid
Santi253
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 4:37 am
Contact:

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by Santi253 »

The Buddha, being from Nepal, was of the Mongoloid race. The Kirats were the ruling people of ancient Nepal:
Kirata Kingdom (Kirat) in Sanskrit literature and Hindu mythology refers to any kingdom of the Kirata people, who were dwellers mostly in the Himalayas (mostly eastern Himalaya). They took part in the Kurukshetra War along with Parvatas (mountaineers) and other Himalayan tribes. They were widespread in the folds and valleys of Himalayas in Nepal and Bhutan, and also migrated to Indian states of Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal, Darjeeling (West Bengal), Assam and Tripura including west mountain of Pakistan. Kirata dynasty was established by king Yalamber...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirata_Kingdom
This is what the Buddha would look like if he were alive today:
Image
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by Assaji »

Kusala wrote:I did some research on the subject and concluded that the Buddha, without a shadow of a doubt, was an Aryan. The Pali Cannon describes the Buddha as tall, handsome, blue eyed...from Afghanistan to Northern India, you find people that could possibly be the descendants of the ancient Aryans...
Yes, he was an Aryan, as evidenced by language, - and blue eyes in the list give an important hint.
A mongoloid would have spoken Tibeto-Burman language.

Michael Witzel wrote on the origin of Sakyas:
Both the Malla and Vrji apparently immigrated into the east only after the end of the Vedic period, but well before the time of the Buddha (c. 400 B.C.). This must have been one of the last great infiltrations in Vedic times of western peoples into the lower Gangå area. More or less about this time the so-called second urbanization began as well.

Nevertheless, the settlement pattern in the east was not as homogenous as it was in the more western areas where the indigenous population had become Indo-Aryan in language and culture since the Mantra period. Instead, the Kosala-Videha area was one of great mixture of peoples. There were some earlier eastern Indo-Aryan settlers, the local Munda people and some Tibeto-Burmese elements. Then, various types and groups new immigrants entered from the areas further west. These were some brahmanically oriented tribes but also other non-orthoprax Indo-Aryan tribes such as the Malla and Vrji. They immigrated from northwestern India into Bihar which had been already settled by the old, para-Vedic Indo-Aryan tribes such as the Iksvåku, Kosala, Kåśi, and Videha.

Many of these tribes, including the Śakya to whom the Buddha belonged, are called asurya in ŚB. For it is the Sakya and their neighbors, the Malla, Vajji, etc. who are reported in the Påli texts as builders of high grave mounds, such as the one built for the Buddha. According to ŚB 12.8.1.5 the “easterners and others(!)” are reported to have round “demonic” graves, some of which may have been excavated at Lauriya in E. Nepal. These graves are similar to the kurgan type grave mounds of S. Russia and Central Asia. However, the origin of the Śakya is not as clear as that of the Malla and Vrji. They may very well have been (northern) Iranian, and would then constitute an earlier, apparently the first wave of the later Śaka invasions from Central Asia.
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witz ... df#page=56
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indo-Eura ... sage/13470

See also:

Possible Iranian Origins for Sākyas and Aspects of Buddhism
Jayarava Attwood

http://jocbs.org/index.php/jocbs/article/view/26
http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2012/02/po ... ea-of.html
Dharmic
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:17 am

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by Dharmic »

Santi253 wrote:
This is what the Buddha would look like if he were alive today:
Hi,

Story behind the image you posted : https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~dmgildow/1.1.html

:anjali:
Santi253 wrote:Image
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1144
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by Kusala »

Santi253 wrote:The Buddha, being from Nepal, was of the Mongoloid race. The Kirats were the ruling people of ancient Nepal:
Kirata Kingdom (Kirat) in Sanskrit literature and Hindu mythology refers to any kingdom of the Kirata people, who were dwellers mostly in the Himalayas (mostly eastern Himalaya). They took part in the Kurukshetra War along with Parvatas (mountaineers) and other Himalayan tribes. They were widespread in the folds and valleys of Himalayas in Nepal and Bhutan, and also migrated to Indian states of Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal, Darjeeling (West Bengal), Assam and Tripura including west mountain of Pakistan. Kirata dynasty was established by king Yalamber...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirata_Kingdom
This is what the Buddha would look like if he were alive today:
Image
We can't say with 100% certainty what the Buddha would have looked like, but if we look closely at ancient scriptures, archaeological and genetic evidence we can get a pretty accurate description of the historical Buddha.

Image
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
Santi253
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 4:37 am
Contact:

Re: The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

Post by Santi253 »

Dharmic wrote:
Santi253 wrote:
This is what the Buddha would look like if he were alive today:
Hi,

Story behind the image you posted : https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~dmgildow/1.1.html

:anjali:
Santi253 wrote:Image
I understand that the picture itself may not have been made during the Buddha's time, but it does depict what the people of ancient Nepal would have looked like. They would have looked similar to how Tibetans look today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirati_people

The Kirats were the ruling people of ancient Nepal. Of course, it wouldn't bother me if the Buddha were of a different race entirely, since the Dharma transcends racial distinctions.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Post Reply