Greetings zengen,
Debate on whether heaven and hell realms literally exist in a geo-spatial sense may prove to be beside the point, because whether one frames them as "literal" or "metaphorical", the important aspect of them is that they are "experiential".
They can be experienced, and were they not experienced, they would not be of relevance to the Dhamma. They are mentioned by the Buddha in his discourses because they can be experienced, are replete with dukkha and are best avoided for this reason.
Further reading: MN 60: Apannaka Sutta and SN 56.31: Simsapa Sutta.
Metta,
Paul.
Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27859
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27859
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
Greetings,
Factual representations by bhikkhus are grounds only for expiation (pacittiya).
Source
Metta,
Paul.
Actually, it's only a parajika offence to lie and falsely claim superhuman states.Ben wrote:... the fact that claims of attainment are a parajika offence and thus invalidates the claimant's status as a monk and his claim...
Factual representations by bhikkhus are grounds only for expiation (pacittiya).
Source
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
I would agree, as long as "they can be experienced" is an expression of possibility, not only past or present personal experience. If one only went on one's personal experience, and not on the teaching of others, then learning anything would take a very long time... (aeons?).Paul Davy wrote: They can be experienced, and were they not experienced, they would not be of relevance to the Dhamma. They are mentioned by the Buddha in his discourses because they can be experienced, are replete with dukkha and are best avoided for this reason.
As the first post of the thread mentioned:
One can take these things as scary, or as inspiration to act. From the introduction to Chapter 1 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's "In the Buddha's Words": http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640 or http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/buddhas- ... -conditionSince living beings spend most of their lives in the three lower realms (animal, ghost, hell), do you think that in the infinite stretch of samsara (cyclic existence), living beings spend the majority of their time in the hell realm? It is truly scary if that is the case.
The texts are found in:Moreover, the process is not only beginningless but is also potentially endless. As long as ignorance and craving remain intact, the process will continue indefinitely into the future with no end in sight. For the Buddha and Early Buddhism, this is above all the defining crisis at the heart of the human condition: we are bound to a chain of rebirths, and bound to it by nothing other than our own ignorance and craving. The pointless wandering on in saṃsāra occurs against a cosmic background of inconceivably vast dimensions. The period of time that it takes for a world system to evolve, reach its phase of maximum expansion, contract, and then disintegrate is called a kappa (Skt: kalpa), an eon. Text I,4(3) offers a vivid simile to suggest the eon’s duration; Text I,4(4), another vivid simile to illustrate the incalculable number of the eons through which we have wandered.
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn15
Mike
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27859
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
Greetings Mike,
Metta,
Paul.
Indeed. Nice clarification.mikenz66 wrote:I would agree, as long as "they can be experienced" is an expression of possibility, not only past or present personal experience. If one only went on one's personal experience, and not on the teaching of others, then learning anything would take a very long time... (aeons?).
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
Could you share your own experience of other realms, please Paul ?Paul Davy wrote:
They can be experienced, and were they not experienced, they would not be of relevance to the Dhamma
Just as an aside, I noticed this comment by Barbara O'Brian (writer, journalist and Zen practitioner) in the section about the Buddhist Thirty- one realms at the About Religion website:
Whether it's useful to explore the other worlds I cannot say, because I haven't much looked at them myself. Information about them strikes me as a lot of brain clutter, frankly. But there may be some allegorical gems in the clutter somewhere that are worth seeking.
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27859
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
Greetings Aloka,
What I can say, is that I can recall instances which I would happily call hellish, and those I would happily call heavenly. For the purposes of understanding the causality of kamma and its fruit, I have found these sufficient to demonstrate the principle first-hand, without speculation.
Metta,
Paul.
Such a loaded question, when all I said is they "can" be experienced, because there is the potential to do so...Aloka wrote:Could you share your own experience of other realms, please Paul?
What I can say, is that I can recall instances which I would happily call hellish, and those I would happily call heavenly. For the purposes of understanding the causality of kamma and its fruit, I have found these sufficient to demonstrate the principle first-hand, without speculation.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
So in these cases you interpret them as mental states ?Paul Davy wrote:
What I can say, is that I can recall instances which I would happily call hellish, and those I would happily call heavenly. For the purposes of understanding the causality of kamma and its fruit, I have found these sufficient to demonstrate the principle first-hand, without speculation.
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27859
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
Greetings Aloka,
Metta,
Paul.
I wouldn't restrict it to "mental" because that would preclude the "physical" - both are experienceable.Aloka wrote:So in these cases you interpret them as mental states ?
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
Greetings and felicitations, Paul,Paul Davy wrote:Greetings Aloka,
I wouldn't restrict it to "mental" because that would preclude the "physical" - both are experienceable.
Indeed.
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
11:12-12:54... http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/y201 ... scapes.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Khalil Bodhi wrote:Great quote! Thank you for this. Do you have a link too? Be well!Kusala wrote:
Thanissaro:
"I was given a lecture a while back by someone who was quoting an academic, saying that 'to say that there is a right Dharma and a wrong Dharma is very dangerous thing'. The analogy they gave was, 'the Dharma is like a map, everyone's Dharma is like a different map and as we know all map's distort to one extent or another, so there's no one true map. There's no one map that corresponds to all of reality. We have to accept the fact that everybody's map distort in one way or another'. But that's a false analogy.
What the Buddha's giving is instructions on how to find the fire escape. And you can go anywhere in the world, any hotel in the world, and the maps to the fire escape are all the same regardless of the culture, regardless of fancy or un-fancy the hotel is...
They don't have to tell you how the hotel was built or what's in the walls or what's in the foundations, all they have to tell you where you go to get out. No types of information are all very standard. And there are good and bad maps to the fire escape. Some diagrams will put you in a dead end corridor where you'd be consumed by flames, or asphyxiated by the smoke, others take you to a door and then you open the door and it drops for 50ft. So you want to avoid those maps... "
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
- Monkey Gift of Honey
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:23 am
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
The Bottomless Pit
Patala Sutta - SN 36.4
"Monks, when an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person makes the statement, 'There is a bottomless chasm in the ocean,' he is talking about something that doesn't exist, that can't be found. The word 'bottomless chasm' is actually a designation for painful bodily feeling.
"When an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is touched by a painful bodily feeling, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person who has not risen up out of the bottomless chasm, who has not gained a foothold.
"When a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones is touched by a painful bodily feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones who has risen up out of the bottomless chasm, whose foothold is gained."
Whoever can't endure them
once they've arisen —
painful bodily feelings
that could kill living beings —
who trembles at their touch,
who cries & wails,
a weakling with no resilience:
he hasn't risen up
out of the bottomless chasm
or even gained
a foothold.
Whoever endures them
once they've arisen —
painful bodily feelings
that could kill living beings —
who doesn't tremble at their touch:
he's risen up
out of the bottomless chasm,
his foothold is gained.
Patala Sutta, translation from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Patala Sutta, translation from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
Patala Sutta - SN 36.4
"Monks, when an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person makes the statement, 'There is a bottomless chasm in the ocean,' he is talking about something that doesn't exist, that can't be found. The word 'bottomless chasm' is actually a designation for painful bodily feeling.
"When an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is touched by a painful bodily feeling, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person who has not risen up out of the bottomless chasm, who has not gained a foothold.
"When a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones is touched by a painful bodily feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones who has risen up out of the bottomless chasm, whose foothold is gained."
Whoever can't endure them
once they've arisen —
painful bodily feelings
that could kill living beings —
who trembles at their touch,
who cries & wails,
a weakling with no resilience:
he hasn't risen up
out of the bottomless chasm
or even gained
a foothold.
Whoever endures them
once they've arisen —
painful bodily feelings
that could kill living beings —
who doesn't tremble at their touch:
he's risen up
out of the bottomless chasm,
his foothold is gained.
Patala Sutta, translation from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Patala Sutta, translation from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
As a mother watches over her child, willing to risk her own life to protect her only child, so with a boundless heart should one cherish all living beings, suffusing the whole world with unobstructed loving kindness. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all of one's waking hours, one should sustain this heart and this way of living.
- Karaniya Metta Sutta
- Karaniya Metta Sutta
Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm
I must say however the fact and academic theory could be two different things. I know someone who have abhinna and said someone's relative have been reborn in peta realm. They asked the relative to dedicate merit to the deceased ones, not long after that they were reborn into one of the heavenly realm.
If lifespan in woe state is extremely long and exceedingly difficult to go back to the higher realms, the story I described above
would not exist.