What is right view?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

I do not think that "mundane" is a good translation of lokiya, if loka means "cosmos" then lokiya means "in this cosmos" and lokuttara means "beyond this cosmos".

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: What is right view?

Post by Ben »

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

I do not think that "mundane" is a good translation of lokiya, if loka means "cosmos" then lokiya means "in this cosmos" and lokuttara means "beyond this cosmos".

Best wishes, Vincent.
Thanks Vincent but I think I prefer Nyantiloka's translation:
Lokiya
...
worldly, mundane, when opposed to lokuttara.
-- http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... 1:825.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is right view?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,

I think you're overcomplicating it somewhat.

Extract from SN 56.11: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects.

"The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being.

"Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.

"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"'Suffering, as a noble truth, is this.' Such was the vision, the knowledge, the understanding, the finding, the light, that arose in regard to ideas not heard by me before. 'This suffering, as a noble truth, can be diagnosed.' Such was the vision, the knowledge, the understanding, the finding, the light, that arose in regard to ideas not heard by me before. 'This suffering, as a noble truth, has been diagnosed.' Such was the vision, the knowledge, the understanding, the finding, the light, that arose in regard to ideas not heard by me before.

"'The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this.' Such was the vision... 'This origin of suffering, as a noble truth, can be abandoned.' Such was the vision... 'This origin of suffering, as a noble truth, has been abandoned.' Such was the vision... in regard to ideas not heard by me before.

"'Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this.' Such was the vision... 'This cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, can be verified.' Such was the vision... 'This cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, has been verified.' Such was the vision... in regard to ideas not heard by me before.

"'The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this.' Such was the vision... 'This way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, can be developed.' Such was the vision... 'This way leading to the cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, has been developed.' Such was the vision... in regard to ideas not heard by me before.

"As long as my knowing and seeing how things are, was not quite purified in these twelve aspects, in these three phases of each of the four noble truths, I did not claim in the world with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with its monks and brahmans, with its princes and men to have discovered the full Awakening that is supreme. But as soon as my knowing and seeing how things are, was quite purified in these twelve aspects, in these three phases of each of the four noble truths, then I claimed in the world with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with its monks and brahmans, its princes and men to have discovered the full Awakening that is supreme. Knowing and seeing arose in me thus: 'My heart's deliverance is unassailable. This is the last birth. Now there is no renewal of being.'"
Emphasis mine.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
BudSas
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:12 am

Re: What is right view?

Post by BudSas »

Right View was explained in details in a BPS Wheel Series book, based on Sammaditthi Sutta MN 9 (Discourse on Right View) spoken by Ven Saiputta, and its Commentary. You can read it in full at:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el377.html

For those who are in a hurry, you can read the Introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi.

BDS
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi retrofuturist,

I did not understand your post. Could you explain what you mean by overcomplicating it. Also what is the passage from SN 56.11 intended to establish ? Thanks.

Best wishes, Vincent.
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The theme of this thread is the simple idea that the term "right view" is used for more than one thing. I would like to identify these things. Also, I would like to identify the path factor "right view" for the noble eightfold path.
I agree with Collins that the term "right view" is used for several different things.

1. Acceptance of a belief in kamma/rebirth. We know this from MN 117 and other suttas. This seems to be right view for puthujjanas, and yet, it may still apply to those on the noble eightfold path.

2. Mere acquaintance with certain key doctrines. This means that a conceptual understanding of say, the four noble truths, is right view.

3. Liberating insight. Insight into the four noble truths, or insight into dependent origination. What does insight see, and how does it liberate ?

It seems that bhikkhu Bodhi has a similar view, he calls number 2 "conceptual understanding", and number 3 "experiential understanding".

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is right view?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,

Have you considered that Right View may be a momentary thing... just like Right Mindfulness, Right Effort, Right Concentration, Right Speech and so on? And that like those things it might not be a simple, straight, binary, Yes or No?

(Hence the context of the sutta I provided)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
pt1
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: What is right view?

Post by pt1 »

Hi, maybe it would be useful to mention the abhidhamma perspective here.

In ACMA (chpater VII, paragrpah 30, page 282), the eight factors of the Noble 8fold path are defined as eight different mental factors (cetasikas). In particular, "right view (sammaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the Four Noble Truths."

So, as for the question "what is right view", I think we can say that right view is in fact the mental factor (cetasika) of wisdom (panna). It is also translated as understanding. That whole chapter VII in ACM is interesting as it defines various groupings (7 factors of enlightenment, 5 faculties, etc) in terms of their component mental factors. (It also briefly defines the four noble truths in paragraph 38, though a footnote refers you to Visuddhimagga chapter XVI for a much more detailed explanation.) So, the mental factor of wisdom also occurs in other groupings like 7 factors of enlightenment, 4 means of accomplishment, etc (check table 7.3 on ACM page 284 for a quick overview).

Based on this, I think we can say that mental factor of wisdom gradually develops moment to moment, just like other mental factors of mindfulness (sati), concentration(ekaggata), etc. The way I sometimes heard it explained is that first one has to hear the Dhamma to get the right conceptual understanding (3 marks, conditionality, kamma, etc, as was mentioned). Then one wisely considers what s/he heard and at some point is able to directly see (understand) in reality what he has heard and considered. Then the development of this seeing directly (i.e. insight) finally leads to seeing directly the 4 noble truths. As the third noble truth is nibbana, I think this would mean that penetration of the third noble truth would be at least at the level of sotapanna, because nibbana isn't experienced before that.

In fact, ACMA paragraph 38 finishes with this sentence: "It should be noted that while in the section on the requisites of enlightenment, the eight path factors may be either mundane or supramundane, in the teaching of the Four Noble Truths, they are exclusively supramundane". My understanding is that this is precisely because direct seeing of the third noble truth would require the actual experience of nibbana.

But, right view is the start of the whole noble path, so a start has to be made with the mundane level right view first - hearing the dhamma, considering it, etc. In particular, from MN 43:
"Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?"

"Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."

"And assisted by how many factors does right view have awareness-release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward?"

"Assisted by five factors, right view has awareness-release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward. There is the case where right view is assisted by virtue, assisted by learning, assisted by discussion, assisted by tranquility, assisted by insight. Assisted by these five factors, right view has awareness-release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward."
Best wishes
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi retrofuturist,

Momentary right view, and the other path factors ? This idea makes no sense for me. Nor do I find it in the five nikayas. There is sudden enlightenment of course, the immediate destruction of the asavas as described in the Parileyya sutta. I consider the eight noble persons and the four stages to be a false teaching intended for puthujjanas. The doctrine of momentary paths and fruits is ( I believe ) part of the abhidhamma teachings, and is not found in the nikayas.

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is right view?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,
vinasp wrote:Momentary right view, and the other path factors ? This idea makes no sense for me.
What has Right View, other than a momentary citta? How could it be anything other than momentary? Who or what would possess this "Right View"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi retrofuturist,

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about ! Do things not persist in the mind ? Is suffering only momentary ? Why would the Buddha say that wrong views should be eliminated ? If they are only momentary they will be gone in the next moment.
This is not what the Buddha taught. Or do I just mis-understand you.

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is right view?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,
vinasp wrote:Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about ! Do things not persist in the mind ?
See pt1's posting above.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi retrofuturist,

I have chosen to study only the five nikayas. So I do not have any interest in the abhidhamma or the commentaries. Anyway I am too old now to start a major new undertaking such as those. It seems that no one here actually understands what right view is. But that is to be expected I suppose, since to attain right view would make one a noble disciple or stream-winner.
I still do not see what you mean.

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is right view?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,

I don't study them either, but the point they make is spot on.

"Right view (sammaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the Four Noble Truths."

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
pt1
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: What is right view?

Post by pt1 »

vinasp wrote:Do things not persist in the mind ? Is suffering only momentary ? Why would the Buddha say that wrong views should be eliminated ? If they are only momentary they will be gone in the next moment.
This is not what the Buddha taught. Or do I just mis-understand you.
Hi Vincent,

These are excellent questions, and I believe considering questions like these leads to developing right view. We can look at them if you like from sutta POV only. (By the way - it's okay that you're not interested in abhidhamma and commentaries at the moment, I think everyone was at that point at some time or other. And for the record, out of the 3 pitakas, abhidhamma is considered foremost in aiding the establishment of right view. And don't be discouraged about it, just reading one medium-size book - ACMA, will give you a great picture about what abhidhamma is all about, and then if you feel like it, you can go on to Visuddhimagga, which is quite big, so just two books for starters are more than enough).

Looking at your questions from the sutta POV (at least as far as I understand it):
-"Do things not persist in the mind "?
Perhaps consider first what do you mean by "mind". In suttas we have a general designation of nama-rupa (mentality-materiality) - so nama here could stand for the "mind". This can then be further subdivided into 5 aggregates - one rupa and 4 namas - consciousness, feeling, perception and formations. So these 4 namas would now stand together for "mind". Formations can be further subdivided into volition, attention, concentration, etc. So all these different mental factors can come together in a certain combination to make what we call "mind" in a particular situation.

-Do things persist (in the mind)? Now perhaps consider your experiences - how long does one of those mental factors above last/persist? Like a pleasant feeling for example? When it arises for you, does it last all day? Or a whole hour? A second? etc. In my experiences so far, I couldn't really find anything that lasts longer than a split-second. A milisecond maybe, I don't know, my insight is not very sharp (some say that the sharper your insight, the faster you can see how the "mind" changes and they give some really big numbers like a billion times per second). Sometimes it seems that things do last for a few seconds/minutes, but that's usually because there's clinging to some idea or a concept, so change is not noticed. There is a sutta (sorry can't remember the name) where the Buddha says that mind is the fastest thing in the whole universe, and in fact, that he can't think of a suitable simile that can quite describe just how fast the mind changes.

Anyway, regardless of how fast you can see the things in the mind change, it's evident that they do change - hence, it cannot be said that they persist, and hence, they are impermanent (first mark). Because they are impermanent, they are unsatisfactory (suffering -second mark), and because you cannot make them persist (like you can't make a pleasant feeling last for a whole day), they are not-self (third mark). Usually with this understanding, one does away with eternalist views - one extreme of the wrong view fetter. Since it's clear that none of the mental factors persists, there's no point anymore in having views that mind or self or anything else really persists. And it is for this reason that one sets out in search of nibbana, as it is the only thing said not to be impermanent and unsatisfactory.

But, at this point it's very easy to swing into the other extreme of wrong views - annihilation views (that there is nothing that exists,etc). In order to remain on the middle way, it's important to consider conditionality - that the above mentioned mental factors are conditioned in every moment, that is, the mental factors at this moment were conditioned by the mental factors in the previous moment, etc. In other words, wrong view at the present moment would tend to condition more wrong view in some future moment, and similarly for right view and all the other mental factors). In this way there's no more need for a view of a controlling self (eternalist views), nor believing that nothing is real (annihilation views) and afaik, these are the beginnings of right view.

Not sure if this helps? We can continue discussing if you like, trying to keep to the suttas only (though I"m sorry if I don't respond quickly as I'm quite busy with work).

Best wishes
Post Reply