Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
zengen
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by zengen » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:02 pm

Aloka wrote: ...My personal experience is that "hell realms" can be understood and experienced mentally in the here and now, rather than speculated about as being something terrible in another dimension, with people being tortured and prodded with red hot pokers and so on.
Dear Aloka, with all due respect, I must point out that the description of the sufferings in hell are not mere speculation, but are explicitly stated in the Sutta. The Sutta also leaves no room for interpretation. The Buddha described the hell realms as he saw them with his Divine Eye.

:anjali:
TonyConrad wrote: My understanding of the length one would be in hell comes from this sutta whereby one is killed many times, but doesn't leave the hell realm until one's karma is spent.

There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.

Here's the full sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.

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Aloka
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by Aloka » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:57 pm

zengen wrote:
Dear Aloka, with all due respect, I must point out that the description of the sufferings in hell are not mere speculation, but are explicitly stated in the Sutta. The Sutta also leaves no room for interpretation. The Buddha described the hell realms as he saw them with his Divine Eye.

:anjali:
TonyConrad wrote: My understanding of the length one would be in hell comes from this sutta whereby one is killed many times, but doesn't leave the hell realm until one's karma is spent.

There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.

Here's the full sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

OK...so after you are dead, zengen, please can you explain how "you" will get another body which will be tortured in a hell realm? How does that fit in with anatta?... and where is the hell realm located ?

Thanks.

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Nicolas
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by Nicolas » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:11 pm

Discussion about the non-existence of hell realms doesn't belong in this section of the forum, but in Fringe Theravāda Discussion.
To all those questioning hells etc., I recommend reading the suttas.

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Aloka
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by Aloka » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:30 pm

Nicolas wrote:Discussion about the non-existence of hell realms doesn't belong in this section of the forum, but in Fringe Theravāda Discussion.
Yes, you're right, because this topic was cross posted from 'Open Dharma' at the sister forum.
To all those questioning hells etc., I recommend reading the suttas.
I do read the suttas thanks - and what I've been sayng is that hells can exist mentally in my own experience, not that they don't exist at all.

I was also told by a Tibetan teacher a number of years ago that other realms can be interpreted as mental states .

.

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robertk
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by robertk » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:40 pm

Aloka wrote:
zengen wrote:

My understanding of the length one would be in hell comes from this sutta whereby one is killed many times, but doesn't leave the hell


OK...so after you are dead, zengen, please can you explain how "you" will get another body which will be tortured in a hell realm? How does that fit in with anatta?... and where is the hell realm located ?

Thanks.
they remain in hell until the kamma that sent them there is used up.
it fits fine with anatta. In fact even now in the human realm we die and are reborn countless times, khanikamarana.

zengen
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by zengen » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:27 am

Aloka wrote: OK...so after you are dead, zengen, please can you explain how "you" will get another body which will be tortured in a hell realm?
Buddha said that unless we attain the enlightenment of an Arahant, we will continue to be reborn in the six realms. The hell realm is one of the possible realms where we can take rebirth.
Aloka wrote: How does that fit in with anatta?...
Not sure how to answer this. But anatta does not mean there is nothing after death.
Aloka wrote: and where is the hell realm located ?
The hell realms can be seen by some of those that practice the Dhamma.

Quote from Ajahn Maha Bua:
...as I turned my attention to investigating my past lives, it was terrifying to think how many times I had been born and how many times I had died; how many times I was reborn in hell; and how many times in the heavens and the Brahma realms, only to fall back into hell again. It appeared as though the citta was climbing up and down a flight of stairs.But the citta itself never dies. Do you understand this?

The citta never dies. Kamma is buried there in the citta. Good kamma leads the citta upward to the heavens and the Brahma realms. Then, when the good kamma is exhausted, the bad kamma that has lain buried pulls the citta down into the realms of hell. It is as if the citta were climbing up and down a flight of stairs. Do you understand? This is the way it is, so wake up and take notice...
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.

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Katarzyna
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by Katarzyna » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:53 am

Hi zengen,
zengen wrote:Dear Aloka, with all due respect, I must point out that the description of the sufferings in hell are not mere speculation, but are explicitly stated in the Sutta. The Sutta also leaves no room for interpretation. The Buddha described the hell realms as he saw them with his Divine Eye.

Did you not read the quotations from Gombrich and Gethin that were posted by Aloka?

The argument that in the Suttas the Buddha is reported to have credited his divine eye for his knowledge of the features of other realms may be persuasive to those who view the Sutta Pitaka as a flawlessly transmitted verbatim record of the the Buddha’s teachings (like the Buddhists of Myanmar commonly do). But you can’t expect it to have so much weight for those who hold to the modern scholarly consensus that the Pitaka is a collection that evolved over time, with its contents being determined in part by outside cultural influences.

__
Kasia

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mikenz66
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:34 am

Of course, it's fine to have different interpretations of rebirth. However, we have a whole thread for that: the great rebirth debate.

Zengen asked some specific questions about how to interpret the timescales discussed in the suttas (and commentaries). Please stick to answering those questions.

:anjali:
Mike

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Aloka
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by Aloka » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:31 am

zengen wrote: Buddha said that unless we attain the enlightenment of an Arahant, we will continue to be reborn in the six realms.
To avoid any confusion, Zengen, having six realms is a Tibetan Buddhist teaching.

http://www.buddhanet.net/wheel2.htm

In Theravada there are thirty one realms:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html


.

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The Thinker
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by The Thinker » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:02 am

One murderer never made the hell realm , he became upon hearing the Buddhas words an instant arahant, I forget the sutta will search and post later.

So there is no time limit or lifespan based upon this sutta.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Angulimala sutta
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:46 am

Aloka wrote:Ok guys, I'm a woman in the minority here, getting the message loud and clear, as always.
:strawman:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Aloka
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by Aloka » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:03 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Aloka wrote:Ok guys, I'm a woman in the minority here, getting the message loud and clear, as always.
:strawman:

:redherring:

zengen
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by zengen » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:26 pm

Aloka wrote:
zengen wrote: Buddha said that unless we attain the enlightenment of an Arahant, we will continue to be reborn in the six realms.
To avoid any confusion, Zengen, having six realms is a Tibetan Buddhist teaching.

http://www.buddhanet.net/wheel2.htm

In Theravada there are thirty one realms:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html
Same idea. Those 31 realms are because of many levels of heaven.
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.

zengen
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by zengen » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:32 pm

Katarzyna wrote:Hi zengen,
zengen wrote:Dear Aloka, with all due respect, I must point out that the description of the sufferings in hell are not mere speculation, but are explicitly stated in the Sutta. The Sutta also leaves no room for interpretation. The Buddha described the hell realms as he saw them with his Divine Eye.

Did you not read the quotations from Gombrich and Gethin that were posted by Aloka?

The argument that in the Suttas the Buddha is reported to have credited his divine eye for his knowledge of the features of other realms may be persuasive to those who view the Sutta Pitaka as a flawlessly transmitted verbatim record of the the Buddha’s teachings (like the Buddhists of Myanmar commonly do). But you can’t expect it to have so much weight for those who hold to the modern scholarly consensus that the Pitaka is a collection that evolved over time, with its contents being determined in part by outside cultural influences.
__
Kasia
Hi Katarzyna,

I don't know. I don't pay much attention to what scholars say. Many of them don't practice the Dhamma anyway. They rely only on their intellect, which is very limited, and cannot penetrate deep into the Dhamma.

Have you read the quotation from Ajahn Maha Bua which I posted in this thread?
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.

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Aloka
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Re: Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

Post by Aloka » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:25 pm

.... Many of them don't practice the Dhamma anyway. They rely only on their intellect, which is very limited, and cannot penetrate deep into the Dhamma.

Can you provide some evidence to support these statements please, Zengen ?


.

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