I have a question about the Buddha's use of jhana in the Mahaparinibbana. In that sutta, it's said that he he rose through the eight jhanas and immaterial states, came back down to the first jhana, and then went back up to the 4th jhana when he then died.
My question is, why would he do that? It would seem that he had some purpose, as opposed to doing that arbitrarily. So I suspect that there is some. In contrast, why wouldn't he not just go up through the eight jhanas and material states and stay there?
Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
- pink_trike
- Posts: 1130
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
- Contact:
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
More interesting to me is - who is telling us this, and how do they presume to know?
9.
9.
And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Hi PT,
Just before the passage you quoted we have:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
Just before the passage you quoted we have:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The implication is that Ven Anauruddha had the psychic powers necessary to discern the mind of others. Ven Ananda did not...And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Venerable Anuruddha, saying: "Venerable Anuruddha, the Blessed One has passed away."
"No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."
Mike
- pink_trike
- Posts: 1130
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
- Contact:
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
So Anauruddha was able to track this progress through the jhanas in real-time?mikenz66 wrote:Hi PT,
Just before the passage you quoted we have:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;The implication is that Ven Anauruddha had the psychic powers necessary to discern the mind of others. Ven Ananda did not...And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Venerable Anuruddha, saying: "Venerable Anuruddha, the Blessed One has passed away."
"No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."
Mike
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Hi PT,
I have seen a discussion of the original question before, but I can't quite locate it right now.
Metta
Mike
Well, that's how I understand the text. Similarly, some modern meditation masters are said to be able to "read" the mind-state of their students.pink_trike wrote: So Anauruddha was able to track this progress through the jhanas in real-time?
I have seen a discussion of the original question before, but I can't quite locate it right now.
Metta
Mike
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Hi, if I remember correctly from reading The great disciples of the Buddha, Anuruddha was declared by the Buddha to be the foremost disciple in Divine Eye ability. With this ability he would have been able to read other people's minds I think, and so track the Buddha's progress through the jhanas.pink_trike wrote:So Anauruddha was able to track this progress through the jhanas in real-time?
It's interesting though, according to abhidhamma, when a person is in jhana, then the citta is jhana citta, not cuti citta (dying consciousness), so to pass away, the Buddha would have had to exit jhana first. Perhaps someone can check mahaparinibbana commentary if there's anything on why the Buddha went through jhanas? It was published by PTS, English title - The Buddha's last days, translation by Yang-Gyu An.
Best wishes
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Hi everyone,
In my understanding it is not possible for an enlightened individual to enter any of the jhanas. So I have a problem not just with DN 16 but with every passage which depicts the Buddha or an arahant meditating. This is one of the "deep contradictions" in the teachings which most people ignore.
Best wishes, Vincent.
In my understanding it is not possible for an enlightened individual to enter any of the jhanas. So I have a problem not just with DN 16 but with every passage which depicts the Buddha or an arahant meditating. This is one of the "deep contradictions" in the teachings which most people ignore.
Best wishes, Vincent.
- jcsuperstar
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
- Location: alaska
- Contact:
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
why not?vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,
In my understanding it is not possible for an enlightened individual to enter any of the jhanas..
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Who says so? That would be new to me.vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,
In my understanding it is not possible for an enlightened individual to enter any of the jhanas.
Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Hi everyone,
Is it possible for an enlightened individual to enter the jhanas ? No, for the following reasons :
1. The enlightened individual experiences nibbana continuously, all mental formations have ceased. This is already the best possible state of mind. How could he through some effort improve on it ?
2. The jhanas are states of mind experienced by ordinary unenlightened people. They are the result of a temporary suppression of unwholesome mental factors. All of these unwholesome things have been permanently eliminated by the enlightened individual.
3. The enlightened individuals mind is already way beyond the jhana states, do you think he should re-create defilements in order to experience jhana ?
Best wishes, Vincent.
Is it possible for an enlightened individual to enter the jhanas ? No, for the following reasons :
1. The enlightened individual experiences nibbana continuously, all mental formations have ceased. This is already the best possible state of mind. How could he through some effort improve on it ?
2. The jhanas are states of mind experienced by ordinary unenlightened people. They are the result of a temporary suppression of unwholesome mental factors. All of these unwholesome things have been permanently eliminated by the enlightened individual.
3. The enlightened individuals mind is already way beyond the jhana states, do you think he should re-create defilements in order to experience jhana ?
Best wishes, Vincent.
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Hi Vincent,
How do you explain all the suttas that talk about arahants practising jhana?
Metta
Mike
How do you explain all the suttas that talk about arahants practising jhana?
Metta
Mike
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Because the jhanas are an attainable states, and Nibbana is an attainable state, there is a tendency to create a ladder-like model, with each state on a rung of the ladder. So we would then have jhanas 1-8 and Nibbana as 9.
In creating this model we essentially reduce enlightenment to a number line, to a single numerical variable. This is liable to lead to error, because in so doing were are disregarding a great deal of information. To use such a model effectively, one must look carefully at the circumstances in which it used, and the nature of the model, and see if there is still harmony between the two. Having seen how enlightenment is like a ladder, it is just as important (if not more so)to see how enlightenment is NOT like a ladder.
Anyone want to look at this?
In creating this model we essentially reduce enlightenment to a number line, to a single numerical variable. This is liable to lead to error, because in so doing were are disregarding a great deal of information. To use such a model effectively, one must look carefully at the circumstances in which it used, and the nature of the model, and see if there is still harmony between the two. Having seen how enlightenment is like a ladder, it is just as important (if not more so)to see how enlightenment is NOT like a ladder.
Anyone want to look at this?
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Hi mike,
That is a very interesting question. There are many problems in this area and there is much which I can't explain. But not having the answers does not mean that one should ignore the problem. One solution might be that many suttas are fiction written long after the Buddhas death. This view is common in academic circles but does not go down well among Buddhist practitioners. If they are fiction then the Buddha and arahants are depicted in this way to set an example for the monks.
However, there might be a completely different explanation. Perhaps certain puzzles have been put into the teachings for a reason which we do not yet understand. Do you think I am completely wrong on this ?
Best wishes, Vincent.
That is a very interesting question. There are many problems in this area and there is much which I can't explain. But not having the answers does not mean that one should ignore the problem. One solution might be that many suttas are fiction written long after the Buddhas death. This view is common in academic circles but does not go down well among Buddhist practitioners. If they are fiction then the Buddha and arahants are depicted in this way to set an example for the monks.
However, there might be a completely different explanation. Perhaps certain puzzles have been put into the teachings for a reason which we do not yet understand. Do you think I am completely wrong on this ?
Best wishes, Vincent.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Says who?vinasp wrote::
1. The enlightened individual experiences nibbana continuously, all mental formations have ceased. This is already the best possible state of mind. How could he through some effort improve on it ?.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
The Buddha did not pass away in the fourth jhana, only after he left that state:Nibbida wrote:I have a question about the Buddha's use of jhana in the Mahaparinibbana. In that sutta, it's said that he he rose through the eight jhanas and immaterial states, came back down to the first jhana, and then went back up to the 4th jhana when he then died.
"Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
Translated by Bhikkhu Thanissaro:
"Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#chap5
As I understand, he passed away in a state which could not be defined.
BDS