Global Warming & Climate Change and Ecological Buddhism

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catmoon
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Re: 350: Global Events for Climate Action, Real Change

Post by catmoon »

poto wrote:
Those that mentioned the melting of the ice caps need not worry. There is zero chance of either the Arctic or Antarctic ice cap completely melting within our lifetimes.

Today's paper noted that for the first time in history, thick multi-year ice is virtually absent from the arctic. "Rotten ice" with a thickness of about 50cm is all that is left where accumulations in the 80 meter range once were common. It appears that not only is arctic ice thinning, it is already 99% gone. In the last few months, non-icebreaking ships have been tooling around the Northwest Passage, and making a very nice 13 knots headway in rotten ice.

It has been predicted that we will see the arctic seasonally ice-free within ten years.


Mind you this is all from newspaper reports. ( Not the tabloids either.)

Counter-data?
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poto
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Re: 350: Global Events for Climate Action, Real Change

Post by poto »

catmoon wrote:
poto wrote:
Those that mentioned the melting of the ice caps need not worry. There is zero chance of either the Arctic or Antarctic ice cap completely melting within our lifetimes.

Today's paper noted that for the first time in history, thick multi-year ice is virtually absent from the arctic. "Rotten ice" with a thickness of about 50cm is all that is left where accumulations in the 80 meter range once were common. It appears that not only is arctic ice thinning, it is already 99% gone. In the last few months, non-icebreaking ships have been tooling around the Northwest Passage, and making a very nice 13 knots headway in rotten ice.

It has been predicted that we will see the arctic seasonally ice-free within ten years.


Mind you this is all from newspaper reports. ( Not the tabloids either.)

Counter-data?
Lies and propaganda. Even the highly political MET Office is backpedaling on Arctic ice melt projections:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/28/u ... s-by-2020/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I tried to find an article on the Northwest passage, as I remember reading about some expedition that got stuck in the ice this year, but couldn't find it. I was able to find an article about the Northeast Passage though.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/07/t ... e-transit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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poto
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Re: 350: Global Events for Climate Action, Real Change

Post by poto »

christopher::: wrote: You make some good points, and the evidence is not 100% conclusive in support of global warming- especially over the long looooong term, when as you say we might find another ice age coming. But i don't think the opposite is true either, that the evidence proves IPCC predictions (for this century) are wrong.
OK, if you don't want to accept the fact that all the IPCC models were wrong based on their failure to predict temperature, how about the fact that the models they used were all faulty to start with.

Image
The red box surrounds the data from the observations and shows a positive relationship between sea surface temperature changes and the amount of radiation lost to space, while the climate models (the other 11 boxes in Figure 1) show the opposite—radiation lost to space declines as ocean temperatures rise.
source: http://masterresource.org/?p=4307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Look at the graph, all the IPCC model had it backwards. What this means is that the warmer it gets, the more heat escapes into space. The IPCC projections are based on more heat being trapped in the atmosphere as temperatures rise, creating a feedback loop that doesn't exist.

In reality the earth is perfectly capable of regulating it's own temperature without our help.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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christopher:::
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Re: 350: Global Events for Climate Action, Real Change

Post by christopher::: »

poto wrote:
christopher::: wrote:P.S. according to that article global warming "skeptics" prefer satellite data while "believers" prefer ground data. I think that's perhaps a bit deceptive, on both sides. Scientists should be using some kind of averages of both data sets. You can't choose one data set and exclude the other unless you believe the data has been tampered with, and i havent heard that accusation.
Some of the ground stations are not set up properly. They produce bad data and corrupt the whole data set. This is why many "skeptics" prefer the unbiased satellite data. It may also be why the ground data usually always shows warmer temps than the satellite data.

Some of them are mentioned here:
http://www.surfacestations.org/odd_sites.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Back on the subject of CO2. I never said that CO2 drives temperature, only that I hoped it would increase the temps some. You see, I live in Ohio, and it gets bloody cold here... I could use some warming. I hope for warming, but I haven't seen it yet.

Going back further on the CO2 charts to 30 million years, we see no correlation.
There could be many reasons for no correlation being discovered in the past. For example, how accurate is our data, for a million years and back?

But excellent detective work on the part of Watts (your link), concerning the problem with surface station measurements in the US. His criticisms should be looked at carefully, strict guidelines for stations need to be implemented and the data from "contaminated" or questionable ground stations should be thrown out.

If Global Warming is not happening that means the ocean levels won't rise, which is a very good thing.

But we still have lots of other problems related to our pumping of fossil fuels into the air that need to be addressed, such as expanding desertification (from grasslands diminishing), pollution (from carbon emitting factories), deforestation (from forests being cut down), species extinctions (from deforestation and pollution), etc...

ALL of which are tied in to destructive human lifestyles, over consumption of resources and abuse/neglect of other living creatures and what Nature has to offer us....

So, if it turns out global warming isn't happening, but we become more environmentally conscious and make significant changes, humans and Nature will benefit. If we suddenly relax, and stop making efforts to reduce our destructive impact on the environment, that's much more problematic...

I have concerns about the motivations of some (not all) of those who attack the global warming hypothesis...

Good science and criticism though, like Watts is doing, should be paid attention to.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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poto
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Re: 350: Global Events for Climate Action, Real Change

Post by poto »

christopher::: wrote: There could be many reasons for no correlation being discovered in the past. For example, how accurate is our data, for a million years and back?

But excellent detective work on the part of Watts (your link), concerning the problem with surface station measurements in the US. His criticisms should be looked at carefully, strict guidelines for stations need to be implemented and the data from "contaminated" or questionable ground stations should be thrown out.

If Global Warming is not happening that means the ocean levels won't rise, which is a very good thing.

But we still have lots of other problems related to our pumping of fossil fuels into the air that need to be addressed, such as expanding desertification (from grasslands diminishing), pollution (from carbon emitting factories), deforestation (from forests being cut down), species extinctions (from deforestation and pollution), etc...

ALL of which are tied in to destructive human lifestyles, over consumption of resources and abuse/neglect of other living creatures and what Nature has to offer us....

So, if it turns out global warming isn't happening, but we become more environmentally conscious and make significant changes, humans and Nature will benefit. If we suddenly relax, and stop making efforts to reduce our destructive impact on the environment, that's much more problematic...

I have concerns about the motivations of some (not all) of those who attack the global warming hypothesis...

Good science and criticism though, like Watts is doing, should be paid attention to.
Yeah, I'm a fan of what Watts is doing. I read his blog pretty regularly. Although, occasionally he ventures into political matters (which I don't care for), he mostly sticks to the science.

I have no idea how accurate the data is going back millions of years. I haven't looked at those specific data sets myself, but if you're interested in looking at them I can try to track them down for you.

I fully agree that we must address the problems of pollution (especially chemical, toxic metals and plastics), desertification, deforestation, species extinction (at least those extinctions caused by humans), etc. All of those things are valid environmental problems that we should do something about. What I don't agree with is the labeling of CO2 as a pollutant or toxic gas.

It's good to be environmentally conscious. I would very much like to see cleaner more efficient energy, more recycling, improved waste treatment plants, better and more sustainable agricultural practices and a myriad of other things. Just because I'm skeptical of global warming does not mean I'm somehow anti-environment. I live here too ya know ;)
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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christopher:::
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Re: 350: Global Events for Climate Action, Real Change

Post by christopher::: »

Of course. We all do. :anjali: And i'm not strongly attached to the global warming hypothesis. I'm actually much more concerned with these other issues we've mentioned. The only "plus" about global warming is its very much in our face, so it catches people's attention. But if the hypothesis is wrong, GREAT... and if the data is skewed, lets dig into it. Scientists who point to the sloppy methods of Intelligent Design supporters are hypocrites if they don't approach the global warming (and cooling) data and theories with the same rigor...

Skepticism, careful inquiry and open-mindedness is absolutely crucial, in Science. And with that in mind, i've changed the title of the thread. Hope that's okay with the moderators...

:reading:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Annapurna
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Re: 350: Global Events for Climate Action, Real Change

Post by Annapurna »

christopher::: wrote:It's good to be skeptical... Still, seems to me like a switch to alternative energy technologies has a lot of potential for being largely a positive change, even omiting the global warming debate. Less reliance on fossil fuels 1) reduces pollution in our atmosphere, as well as 2) taking away the incentive for Western nations to meddle (violently) in Middle Eastern politics....

Add to that 3) potential economic benefits, if the price of alternative energy falls dramatically...

The sun and wind's energy, if harnested skillfully, could eventually (not counting technology costs) be free...
Renewable energy resources are clearly the most intelligent sources to bank on and invest in.

Fossil resources will run out. Pretty soon too.

Plus they cause pollution of all sorts.

Sun, water and wind, (renewable sources) won't run out, while this planet is our habitat.

All that has to be overcome is habits, the fear of change and the unknown, as well as sceptical conservative clinging to the past.

Any industry that is based on fossil energy will vehemently battle more innovative energy systems, as long as they don't make money with it.

That's all.

A private remark: As a house owner ,I am interested in saving money for energy. If I had the financial means right now, I would get:

1 solar energy on my roof, to go without oil all summer to give me warm water and support central heating. If America had Europes oil prices, it would be apoplectic.

2. photovoltaic to produce my own electricity, and feed excess into the community.

3. a cistern ,to wash laundry and flush toilets with rainwater.

The German Government subsidises solar energy and all public buildings get the newest technologies.
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Annapurna
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Post by Annapurna »

I'd like to have all those energies because I would be far more independent. Hopefully almost self-suffiicient.
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poto
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Post by poto »

I came across this article about how climate change was given the same status as a religion in the U.K.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthn ... igion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess some people can believe in anything strongly enough to be considered a religion. I don't mean to insult anyone's religious beliefs, I just found it surprising.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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catmoon
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Post by catmoon »

More reports in today's paper, this time from some guys travelling on foot in the Arctic. Their measurements show an average ice thickness of 1.8 meters and the article had photos of them crossing some open water in survival type suits. Again, predictions of seasonal open water within ten years and year-round navigability within 30.
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poto
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Post by poto »

catmoon wrote:More reports in today's paper, this time from some guys travelling on foot in the Arctic. Their measurements show an average ice thickness of 1.8 meters and the article had photos of them crossing some open water in survival type suits. Again, predictions of seasonal open water within ten years and year-round navigability within 30.
Was that from the Catlin expedition? I ask because what they are doing is not a real scientific expedition. It is a publicity stunt with well coordinated press releases and media exposure. The data they are collecting will not be used by any reputable scientific organization.

We have records of our submarines surfacing in patches of open water near the north pole as early as the 1940's. Patches of open water are not uncommon in the Arctic. The sea ice is dynamic and much of it is constantly moving due to wind and currents. It breaks apart and gets pushed back together on a regular basis.

I can't seem to find the earlier pics from the submarines in the Arctic that clearly show the open water, though I have seen them before. Anyway here's one from 1987. Notice it was taken in May, well before the height of the summer melt season.
Image
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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catmoon
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Post by catmoon »

Well well well. Isn't that interesting... hmmm. The previous stuff I'd been reading gave the impression that the norm was solid ice eighty meters thick. I'm starting to question that.
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poto
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Post by poto »

catmoon wrote:Well well well. Isn't that interesting... hmmm. The previous stuff I'd been reading gave the impression that the norm was solid ice eighty meters thick. I'm starting to question that.
There's a lot of disinformation out there. To my knowledge Arctic sea ice has never been 80 meters thick since we humans have been measuring and recording it. It may have been that thick sometime in the distant geological history, but certainly not in modern times.

There has been thinning of sea ice in recent years, but nothing that I would consider dire. We did a have record melt in 2007, but it's already rebounding.

Image
Patterns of average winter ice thickness from February to March show thicker ice in 1988 (above), compared to thinner ice averaged from 2003-2008 (below).
source: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/featur ... kinny.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The average sea ice thickness pictures can be somewhat deceiving though, as they tend to represent the sea ice as monolithic, which as you can tell from the pic of the submarines, even when the sea ice was "thicker" it was still not a solid monolithic thing.

btw, the article I sourced that image from seems to be fairly political and biased, which saddens me seeing as it comes from NASA. My tax dollars hard at work promoting politics. :(
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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gavesako
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Post by gavesako »

See these Sutta quotes for a Buddhist perspective on "climate change":

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/07 ... l-conceit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
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BlackBird
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Re: Global Warming & Climate Change: Fact or Fiction?

Post by BlackBird »

gavesako wrote:See these Sutta quotes for a Buddhist perspective on "climate change":

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/07 ... l-conceit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Theravadin is an excellent blog. I see it's affiliated with Ven. Bhikkhu Nanananda, I still wonder who writes it though.

:anjali:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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