I think of this thread as a conversation in which I'm trying to determine if anyone else can see what I saw, which makes your voice as important as mine – as well as the voices of everyone else who has a thought that adds to the discussion. But the difficulty we're having conveying our views, and understanding each other's is really part of my thesis: that the concepts we are dealing with are subtle, and grasping what's really meant is a challenge. It was just the same in the Buddha's day. When we are trying to communicate using the same language and with cultural references in common, even with the best will to try to understand, it is hard to get to perfect understanding of what someone else is trying to convey. Try to convey your meaning across time, factoring in the way language bends – the same word used to mean something entirely different – and the loss of shared context, how much more difficult does it get?Jechbi wrote:It's actually an addition to what I was clumsily trying to say, but I could go along with it. But this thread isn't about my reading it's about yours.
At any rate, I don't know if you (all) agreed with my reading of the two parts we have thus far as an arc – from the unskilled “wrong views” which do harm to others, to the more skilled “right view with taints” which perhaps have good moral grounding going for them, but I used the word “arc” with intention, because you don't draw the lines of an arc with two points, but with three, which this sutta has in its third portion.
The next portion of the sutta reads:
or maybe we should use the Wisdom Pubs version:“And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.”
Bridging between the two translations, it seems we're talking about wisdom/discernment here, and perhaps concentration (investigation-of-states as an enlightenment factor), but still with an emphasis on right view as the most important factor of the path. Since this is a sutta about concentration (in which meditation gets mentioned specifically very few times – only clearly stated once at the start) it would make sense for this portion to be about concentration, too, the wisdom developed by “analysis of qualities/investigation-of-states”.“And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, the path factor of right view in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.”
Anyone else have any thoughts on what is being described in this section?