Thai forest tradition - Refuge in Awareness

[cappuccino]

Advaita teaches awareness... Samkhya is very similar to Advaita.
Buddha rejected Samkhya.

[Goofaholix]

If we analysis further on awareness here, we see that at one point, it is conditioned.....then at another point, it is unconditioned.....this gives an impression that it changes.....this change is an illusion.....the reason being is that awareness had always been unconditioned.....at all times.

Sounds like Mahayana logic, after all "we are all awakened Buddhas but don't realise it" and all that.

If at one point I was unqualified and at another point I'm qualified as a lawyer then my studies were an illusion the reason being I was always a lawyer... don't think so.

[equilibrium]

If we analysis further on awareness here, we see that at one point, it is conditioned.....then at another point, it is unconditioned.....this gives an impression that it changes.....this change is an illusion.....the reason being is that awareness had always been unconditioned.....at all times.

Sounds like Mahayana logic, after all "we are all awakened Buddhas but don't realise it" and all that.

mmmmm.....it depends on where one is standing (your point of reference). The keyword is realise in your above statement.....everything else is worthless (unless one can understand the meaning).....because that is where the division lies between conditioned and the unconditioned.

If at one point I was unqualified and at another point I'm qualified as a lawyer then my studies were an illusion the reason being I was always a lawyer... don't think so.

Well.....this is not a good example to compare the subject in question because a lawyer is based on mundane phase only and it doesn't touch that of the super-mundane.....hence different.
Although the point of an unqualified lawyer to a qualified lawyer is similar to crossing to the other shore/river.....therefore the word illusion doesn't apply here.

[Goofaholix]

Well.....this is not a good example to compare the subject in question because a lawyer is based on mundane phase only and it doesn't touch that of the super-mundane.....hence different.

It seems all pretty Mahayana to me, just because we're talking about a state that is beyond what is ordinarily experienced doesn't mean logic needs to go out the window.

[Spiny Norman]

If we analysis further on awareness here, we see that at one point, it is conditioned.....then at another point, it is unconditioned.....this gives an impression that it changes.....this change is an illusion.....the reason being is that awareness had always been unconditioned.....at all times.

Sounds like Mahayana logic, after all "we are all awakened Buddhas but don't realise it" and all that.

I think it's possible to interpret the suttas in that way, the unconditioned as distinct from the conditioned, something which has always been present, waiting to be "discovered".

"There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.47" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[equilibrium]

It seems all pretty Mahayana to me,.....

Be it Mahayana or Theravada, maybe Zen or Vajrayana.....doesn't matter.....all labels.....the purpose for their existence is to ship beings from one shore to the other.....for different discriminative minds.

.....just because we're talking about a state that is beyond what is ordinarily experienced doesn't mean logic needs to go out the window.

Well.....our minds are naturally curious but the most obvious point (maybe not so obvious) is that of logic.....it is limited.....subjective.....based on a (deluded) mind that doesn't know it is under delusion. To talk about the unconditioned state is like.....what does it say in the suttas?.....Ud 8.1 (Unbinding) is also relevant here:

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress.

Logic.....? has it got the legs to stand on?

[Goofaholix]

Well.....our minds are naturally curious but the most obvious point (maybe not so obvious) is that of logic.....it is limited.....subjective.....based on a (deluded) mind that doesn't know it is under delusion.

Granted.

Sometimes an ironic, paradoxical, or illogical description can highlight the profoundness of the mystery, other times it's just BS. I'm inclined towards the latter regarding the description we're discussing.

To talk about the unconditioned state is like.....what does it say in the suttas?

That approach is the safest bet.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

In the untrained mind, each is conditioned by intentional activity—through the factor of fabrication, and the sub-factor of intention in name-and-form—so that by the time they come into contact with sensory data, they are already preconditioned by ignorance to receive and attend to those data in a particular way. Even in the mind on the path they are still preconditioned, because the purpose of knowledge in terms of right view is to condition consciousness and attention in another direction, toward the ending of suffering. Only when ignorance is totally eradicated, at the culmination of the path, is there an experience of unconditioned awareness. Until that point, consciousness and attention are inevitably purposeful in aiming at happiness: unskillfully in the untrained mind; with increasing skill in the mind on the path.

Metta,
Paul.

[equilibrium]

Sometimes an ironic, paradoxical, or illogical description can highlight the profoundness of the mystery, other times it's just BS. I'm inclined towards the latter regarding the description we're discussing.

It all depends.....but no matter how much we like to read, to hear and even point at it.....they are all pointing to it.....it is not the pointing itself.....it is the actual experience that is being pointed towards.....experience cannot be transferred, one must see it for oneself!.....isn't that what the teaching teaches?.....otherwise, it is all just a massive fabrication.....or even a mystery.

[dhammarelax]

Sometimes an ironic, paradoxical, or illogical description can highlight the profoundness of the mystery, other times it's just BS. I'm inclined towards the latter regarding the description we're discussing.

It all depends.....but no matter how much we like to read, to hear and even point at it.....they are all pointing to it.....it is not the pointing itself.....it is the actual experience that is being pointed towards.....experience cannot be transferred, one must see it for oneself!.....isn't that what the teaching teaches?.....otherwise, it is all just a massive fabrication.....or even a mystery.

Is there any mention of this mystery in the Suttas?

Smile all the time
dhammarelax

[equilibrium]

Is there any mention of this mystery in the Suttas?

"mystery".....(noun).....something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain.

The most obvious one is probably the suttas themselves.....some are easier and some are very difficult to see its true meaning.....so suttas can be a mystery in itself.....it is not that it is difficult, it is because one is not ready.

From another thread: piece of text from SN 35.116:

The dimension of non-objectification, although it may not be described, may be realized through direct experience.

"Monks, that dimension should be experienced where the eye [vision] stops and the perception [label] of form fades. That dimension should be experienced where the ear stops and the perception of sound fades... where the nose stops and the perception of aroma fades... where the tongue stops and the perception of flavor fades... where the body stops and the perception of tactile sensation fades... where the intellect stops and the perception of idea/phenomenon fades: That dimension should be experienced."

Furthermore, under AN 4.173:

Sāriputta: 'Saying... is it the case that there is anything else... is it the case that there is not anything else... is it the case that there both is & is not anything else... is it the case the there neither is nor is not anything else, one is objectifying the non-objectified. However far the six spheres of contact go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six spheres of contact go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six spheres of contact, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.'

[equilibrium]

Ajahn Sumedho from his book Intuitive Awareness :

In terms of this conditioned realm that we perceive, create and hold to, it is a very unstable, uncertain, undependable and changing condition in itself. That’s just the way it is. The Buddha pointed to the instability of conditioned phenomena, to their impermanence. This is not just a philosophy that he was expecting us to go along with. We explore and see the nature of the conditioned realm in just the way we experience it, the physical, the emotional and the mental. But that which is aware of it — your refuge is in this awakened awareness, rather than in trying to find or create a condition that will give us some sense of security. We are not trying to fool ourselves, to create a false sense of security by positive thinking. The refuge is in awakening to reality, because the unconditioned is reality. This awareness, this awakeness is the gate to the unconditioned. When we awaken, that is the unconditioned, the actual awakeness is that. The conditions are whatever they are — strong or weak, pleasant or painful, whatever. -

He also says that awareness is the gateway to the unconditioned, which was my point,.....

The word "gate" is being used to describe a line/boundary which is crossed.....like crossing a 100m race finish line which separates the winner/others. In this instance, used to define the "body". The text (in blue) states clearly awaken is that of the unconditioned.....no need of a further "gateway".

[equilibrium]

Now that this thread has gone quiet, there are matters I wish to attend to which will go off-topic (hence the delay) but has genuine interest related to this thread itself. (mods, split if you wish)

Anything that we can point or refer to is not self. Awareness is clearly not self since we can talk about it as if it is something separate. Even the unconditioned is not self - sabbe dhamma(conditioned and unconditioned) anatta.

Interesting but maybe later.

When we awaken.....What exactly is it that is awakened? is not exactly a valid question. That is the point of the teaching of dependent origination.

Yes, it is pointing towards Dependent origination.....but dependent origination is just dependent origination.....As dependent origination is headed by Ignorance.....How are we to eliminate it or surpass/transcend it?.....I see this thread has everything to resolve the issue.....what do you think?