Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
being5
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by being5 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:59 am

Some months ago I listened with interest to three recordings of Ajahn Sujato addressing a gathering at BSWA where the proposed Bhikkhuni ordination was being discussed. In one talk each of the nuns speaks briefly about what full ordination would mean to her.

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads ... php?cid=63

being5

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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:06 am

Hi being5,
being5 wrote: In one talk each of the nuns speaks briefly about what full ordination would mean to her.
Yes, those talks are certainly worth listening to. The issue is difficult and complex and I certainly hope that those women can fulfil their potential.

Metta
Mke

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gavesako
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by gavesako » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:17 pm

The problem with the transmissions of ordination lineage is that, even in the Theravada tradition, nobody knows for sure whether the lineage was once broken or not. It has happened several times that in one country no bhikkhus to perform a new ordination could be found anymore, and so a group of bhikkhus from elsewhere had to be imported. However, whether those bhikkhus were all legally ordained or not is in itself uncertain, and the historians who wrote the chronicles about these events would not have cast doubts on such matters. Histories were always written for a specific purpose, to celebrate a particular lineage or the king as a patron, so they will necessarily be biased and not totally reliable. This is good to bear in mind when questioning the Chinese transmission.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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gavesako
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by gavesako » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:24 pm

Chris wrote:Hello all,

It remains to be seen whether this action by Ajahn Brahms causes division in the worldwide Theravada Ordained Sangha, and whether it actually has positive or negative affects in the years to come.

Maybe a slower process (which was being worked through) with more consulation and eventual consensus would have been a better alternative?

metta
Chris

I think it is more a matter of loyalty to certain Asian institutions as opposed to direct access to the Vinaya itself and taking the Vinaya as the only measuring stick for actions of the Sangha.

If you haven't seen this article yet, it might also be worth reading because it clarifies the context in which decisions are made in the Thai hierarchy these days:


Buddhism, Democracy and Identity in Thailand by Duncan McCargo

http://books.google.com/books?id=3ountj ... q=&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


If monks like Ajahn Brahm who live in Australia want to rely on Australian values and institutions instead, it will be hard to stop them from doing so.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

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bodhabill
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Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by bodhabill » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:12 am

It is with immense joy that it has been annouced that the first Bhikkhuni Ordination in Australia in the Theravadin tradition in full accordance with the Pali Vinaya was held in Perth on October 22nd at Bodhinyana Monastery

It is with sadness that on Sunday 1 November at Wat Pah Pong (the head monastery of the Ajahn Chah tradition) Ajahn Brahm and his monastery Bodhinyana were formally expelled from Wat Pah Pong for performing this Bhikkhuni Ordination

As a true believer not only in the equality of women but also that the Buddha did create Bhikkhuni's as part of the Sangha I find this reaction astonishing and unfathomable

With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:20 am

Hi Bill,

I'm extremely sorry to hear that. Do you have a reference? The last message here:
http://forestsangha.org/index.php?optio ... 1&Itemid=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
led me to hope that there would not be any action before further discussion:
Meanwhile we can trust in the power of our commitment to right practice and our shared aspiration for concord and understanding.
Bhikkhu Bodhi even posted a supportive letter here:
http://sites.google.com/site/supportbhi ... kkhu-bodhi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
However, I note that though Ajahn Sujato has not posted any more text since November 1, his blog has turned black:
http://sujato.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I sincerely hope that the situation will be resolved.

Metta
Mike

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bodhabill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by bodhabill » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:30 am

Hi Mike

Link is http://santifm1.0.googlepages.com/, the homepage of Bhante Sujato and Santi Forest Monastery

With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:41 am

Thanks Bill,

There is now an extended article at Ajahn Sujato's blog:
http://sujato.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike

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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:51 am

Dear Bill,

I presume from your location that you are familiar with Santi Forest Monastery. From the list at http://forestsangha.org/index.php?optio ... 0&Itemid=9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It seems that it does not have a direct affiliation with the other overseas Ajahn Chah monasteries. Is it considered a branch of Bodhinyana?

Mike

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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by BlackBird » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:53 am

Venerable Sujato's latest post entitled 'Black Sunday'

This is a very sad day indeed for the Triple Gem... For the life of me I never thought it would come to this.

May you all be well, and steadfast in your practice.
:group:

Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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bodhabill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by bodhabill » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:18 am

Hi Mike

My understanding is that Santi has no affiliation with Wat Pah Pong but is strongly linked to Bodhinyana Monastery in Perth

A link from the Santi website may help http://santifm1.0.googlepages.com/history

Thank you for your help in posting the link http://sujato.wordpress.com/ which has additional information regarding this matter

As also mentioned there is a site which is gathering support for the Bhikkhuni Ordination at http://www.supportbhikkhunis.org/

With metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:27 am

Excellent response letter by Bhikkhu Bodhi. :bow:

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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BlackBird » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:54 am

This is an important time for us as practitioners, to see just how far reaching and detrimental the effects of a schism are on the Sasana at large. This is an important lesson in harmony. Events are playing out before our very eyes and history is being written.

The whole world suffers because of this event, give it some thought and see how far reaching it really is.



:anjali:
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Jechbi » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:05 am

Wow.

This passage is interesting, from here (will launch .pdf document):
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:There is nothing in the text itself, or elsewhere in the Pāli Vinaya,
that lays down a rule stating categorically that, should the Bhikkhunī Sangha become extinct,
the bhikkhus are prohibited from falling back on the original allowance the Buddha
gave them to ordain bhikkhunīs and confer upasampadā on their own to resuscitate the
Bhikkhunī Sangha.
To me this seems to be the crucial point: Only if there were such a clear
prohibition would we be entitled to say that the bhikkhus are overstepping the bounds
of legitimacy by conducting such an ordination. In the absence of such a decree in the
text of the Vinaya Piṭaka and its commentaries, the judgment that an ordination by
bhikkhus is in violation of the Vinaya is only an interpretation.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BudSas » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:08 am

BlackBird wrote:This is an important time for us as practitioners, to see just how far reaching and detrimental the effects of a schism are on the Sasana at large. This is an important lesson in harmony. Events are playing out before our very eyes and history is being written.

The whole world suffers because of this event, give it some thought and see how far reaching it really is.
Personally, I don't believe this is a "schism", and I don't think "the world suffers because of this event" either.

I agree with Ven Gavesako's previous comment: "I think it is more a matter of loyalty to certain Asian institutions as opposed to direct access to the Vinaya itself and taking the Vinaya as the only measuring stick for actions of the Sangha."

BDS

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