About the fifth Śīla

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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pink_trike
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by pink_trike »

Dan74 wrote:
What I took issue with is Ben's seemingly militant approach -"if you have any alcohol at all, you are in breach of Sila" and by implication not a committed Buddhist. Blanket approaches like these tend to backfire, I find.

_/|\_
Hi Dan,

Since this is a Theravada board, I think it's understandable that some Theravada practitioners may want to pointedly clarify the teachings as they are strictly upheld within the tradition by most committed practitioners, especially for those viewers who may be new to the Theravada path...in order to minimize the potential for confusion. Other traditions may be less rigorous or strict but this is a fundamental aspect of Theravada - and viewed from within the traditon it is a reasonable standard to protect.

I have a disclaimer in my signature as a warning that anything I say may not be consistent with the Theravada perspective because my perspective is informed by other Dharma traditions. I do this in order to avoid generating confusion among Theravada practitioners and newbies to Theravada who may not be fully aware of the importance of this rigorousness that is central to Theravada - it lets them know that my view may or may not be orthodox Theravada..."read at your own risk". Maybe this would be useful for you here also... :anjali:
Last edited by pink_trike on Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ben
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Ben »

Thanks Mr Pink
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Dan74
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Dan74 »

Hi Jeff,

Sure it is a Theravada board (and I am happy that it is), but I though this thread was in Dhammic free-for-all for a reason. In my first post I quoted examples of teachers of other Buddhist schools (which I thought this is an appropriate forum to do so) and was basically told that they are in breach of Sila (Ben) and not Buddhist (Chris).

I am OK with people voicing their views and I don't take offense but I do hope I was not out of line questioning both the appropriateness of such interpretation and the way it was expressed.

Dan

~~~~~~ Theravada beginners - watch out! Only confusion and degenerate views here :twisted:
_/|\_
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tiltbillings
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:Hi Jeff,

Sure it is a Theravada board (and I am happy that it is), but I though this thread was in Dhammic free-for-all for a reason. In my first post I quoted examples of teachers of other Buddhist schools (which I thought this is an appropriate forum to do so) and was basically told that they are in breach of Sila (Ben) and not Buddhist (Chris).
And I sure you can point to teachers whose use of ETOH has been quite destructive.
I am OK with people voicing their views and I don't take offense but I do hope I was not out of line questioning both the appropriateness of such interpretation and the way it was expressed.
Maybe.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
BudSas
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by BudSas »

If I remember correctly, the Samyutta Nikaya mentioned one exceptional case: Sarakani, the Sakyan, had been a heavy drinker for most of his life until the time of his death. And yet, after his death, the Buddha declared that Sarakani attained the state of Stream-Enterer. Any comment?

BDS
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catmoon
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by catmoon »

Hmm. I am something of a Scotch whisky nut. I have special glassware for nosing, and examining a new scotch brings every sense faculty I have to a humming vibrating peak of intensity. Since drinking scotch in this way is an extreme exercise in mindfulness, how does the precept apply?
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cooran
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by cooran »

Hello Budsas,

Sarakāni
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... rakani.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Sakyans thought that if Sarakāni violated a Precept he would lack the fourth factor of stream-entry and thus could not be a stream-enterer.
At the time of his death he was a fulfiller of the three trainings (in virtue concentration, and wisdom). This implies that, while he might have indulged in strong drink earlier, before his death he undertook strict observance of the precepts and thereafter attained stream-entry.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
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tiltbillings
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by tiltbillings »

catmoon wrote:Hmm. I am something of a Scotch whisky nut. I have special glassware for nosing, and examining a new scotch brings every sense faculty I have to a humming vibrating peak of intensity. Since drinking scotch in this way is an extreme exercise in mindfulness, how does the precept apply?
Just don't get intoxicated, inebriated, inebrious, drunk, tipsy, besotted, or crapulous.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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catmoon
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by catmoon »

tiltbillings wrote:
catmoon wrote:Hmm. I am something of a Scotch whisky nut. I have special glassware for nosing, and examining a new scotch brings every sense faculty I have to a humming vibrating peak of intensity. Since drinking scotch in this way is an extreme exercise in mindfulness, how does the precept apply?
Just don't get intoxicated, inebriated, inebrious, drunk, tipsy, besotted, or crapulous.

Gee I never tried crapulous before. Do enlighten me!
Individual
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Individual »

Dan74 wrote:There is also a sutta involving an actor where the Buddha tells him that what he does will lead to a rebirth in the lower realms (from memory).

Now is all entertainment and music inherently harmful?
I don't remember the specific sutta, but in that case, the Buddha talks about entertainment which involves craving and promotes foolishness.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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tiltbillings
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by tiltbillings »

catmoon wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
catmoon wrote:Hmm. I am something of a Scotch whisky nut. I have special glassware for nosing, and examining a new scotch brings every sense faculty I have to a humming vibrating peak of intensity. Since drinking scotch in this way is an extreme exercise in mindfulness, how does the precept apply?
Just don't get intoxicated, inebriated, inebrious, drunk, tipsy, besotted, or crapulous.

Gee I never tried crapulous before. Do enlighten me!
If you made it to "intoxicated, inebriated, inebrious, drunk, tipsy, besotted," you made it to crapulous. Here is crapulous illustrated:
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Individual
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Individual »

If all Buddhists tell others that in order to be Buddhists:

-They cannot use alcohol or participate in its usage (i.e. Ben's refusal to even serve it)
-They cannot kill insects, get abortions, euthanize animals or elderly relatives
-They cannot use pornography or frequently indulge in casual sex
-They cannot download music, movies, games, or software illegally on the internet
-They cannot engage in foul comedy or unwholesome entertainment
-They must condemn the above activities whenever the situation arises

...with the militant approach Dan describes...

Let's imagine how small Buddhism would be.
Last edited by Individual on Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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cooran
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by cooran »

Hello all,
Dan74 said: There is also a sutta involving an actor where the Buddha tells him that what he does will lead to a rebirth in the lower realms (from memory).
Now is all entertainment and music inherently harmful?
Considering a career in acting? You may want to reconsider...
Then Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"
"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."
A second time... A third time Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"
"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."
When this was said, Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'"
"I'm not crying, lord, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of actors who said: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.'
— SN 42.2
From: Right Livelihood (samma-ajivo)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by BlackBird »

Individual wrote: Let's imagine how small Buddhism would be.
I don't know if anyone ever expected Buddhism to be a mass movement, let alone a global religion?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Ben
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Ben »

Individual wrote:...with the militant approach Dan describes...
There is nothing militant about maintaining the precepts, Individual. Without the precepts, there can be no sammasamadhi, and without sammasamadhi, no bhavana-maya-panna. No liberation. I make no apologies for my approach to issues of sila and ethics, and if people don't like it - tough.
Let's imagine how small Buddhism would be.
Instead, let's imagine actually engaging with the practice, and practicing precisely, with a view for liberation. It will have such a profoundly positive effect on your life individual, that it will alter the way you see the world and in fact, the world around you. Focus on your practice Individual, and the big picture will sort itself out.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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