Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
indian_buddhist
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by indian_buddhist »

Silver Surfer

your enthusiasm is your greatest strength. Keep that going and you will reach your destination eventually.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.
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Way~Farer
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by Way~Farer »

It is interesting and relevant that the original expression of the various 'wrong views concerning eternalism' is the Brahmajāla Sutta, the 'All Encompassing Net of Views'. The notion that is mainly criticized on account of it being 'eternalism' is the idea that 'the Self' is something which will endure for ever and ever - like a mountain peak or a pole set fast in the earth are the kinds of similes that are given. This is said to be the view of 'certain ascetics and contemplatives' who had recalled 10, or 20, or hundreds, or thousands of previous existences and came to the conclusion that they therefore were, to all intents, eternal. (Actually if one recalled thousands of prior births, I think that might be an eminently reasonable conclusion.)

Now, whether that view actually amounts to what Western sources mean by 'the soul' is far from obvious. 'The soul' doesn't have to be conceived as 'something self-existent, unchanging and eternal'. 'The soul' might simply be a way of referring to the totality of the human - something more than simply the ego/persona, and encompassing the latencies, tendencies and aspirations which might not be available to conscious introspection. In that way of speaking 'soul' is more a process than an entity - more like, in fact, the 'mind-stream' which is the (rather inelegant) expression that exponents of re-birth are often obliged to adopt.

Just some things to comtemplate.

:namaste:
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Vanda
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by Vanda »

There is no eternal soul
According to the Buddha's teachings, that is correct.
There is... only a stream of consciousness ~ within the universe of form. This is a fact, correct?
That is incorrect.

A helpful text on the subject would be Milindapanha ("Questions of Milinda"), from the Khuddaka Nikaya (minor collection of texts). You can read it online in many places, PDF, etc
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
hermitwin
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by hermitwin »

Some people believe that Buddha did teach reincarnation. He talked about his previous lives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htQ12Z2MV0Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
hermitwin
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by hermitwin »

It is interesting to note that Buddhists in Asia do not differentiate between reincarnation and rebirth. Why do westerners have a big problem with Buddha and reincarnation?
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samseva
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by samseva »

hermitwin wrote:It is interesting to note that Buddhists in Asia do not differentiate between reincarnation and rebirth. Why do westerners have a big problem with Buddha and reincarnation?
The correct understanding of rebirth is not a simple task. Even when meditating a lot, it takes much wisdom. Another reason might be that Buddhists in Asia don't necessarily speak English. The words reincarnation and rebirth probably have no direct translation or slightly different definitions.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by Dhammanando »

hermitwin wrote:It is interesting to note that Buddhists in Asia do not differentiate between reincarnation and rebirth. Why do westerners have a big problem with Buddha and reincarnation?
Asian Buddhists who use the two terms indiscriminately usually do so either because of a poor grasp of English, such that they’re not aware of any difference in meaning between them, or else a poor grasp of Buddhist doctrine, such that they don’t distinguish the Buddhist conception of the afterlife from the Hindu one. For example, they may not be familiar with the Milindapañha’s distinction between the verbs saṅkamati and paṭisandahati :-
  • The King said: “Revered Nāgasena, does that which does not pass over (saṅkamati) reconnect (paṭisandahati)?”

    “Yes, sire, that which does not pass over reconnects.”

    “How, revered Nāgasena, does that which does not pass over reconnect? Make a simile.”

    “Suppose, sire, some man were to light a lamp from (another) lamp; would that lamp, sire, pass over from that (other) lamp?”

    “No, revered sir.”

    “In the same way, sire, that which does not pass over reconnects.”

    "Make a further simile."

    “Do you remember, sire, when you were a boy learning some verse from a teacher of verses ?”

    “Yes, revered sir.”

    “But, sire, does that verse pass over from the teacher?”

    “O no, revered sir.”

    “In the same way, sire, that which does not pass over (yet) reconnects.”

    “You are dexterous, revered Nāgasena.”
    (Mil. 71-2, Horner tr.)
Of the two terms, “reincarnation” carries too strong a sense of something (i.e. a soul) passing over.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
hermitwin
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by hermitwin »

Bhante Dhammanando, what do you think about Ajahn Brahm's take on reincarnation?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by Dhammanando »

hermitwin wrote:Bhante Dhammanando, what do you think about Ajahn Brahm's take on reincarnation?
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with it. What does he say?
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Dhammanando wrote:
hermitwin wrote:Bhante Dhammanando, what do you think about Ajahn Brahm's take on reincarnation?
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with it. What does he say?
Watch the video in this post
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nmz
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by nmz »

Let me say what I am thinking about it out of my little knowledge.

I've accepted that all components of the whole me is just five aggregates and its processing, nothing to add or reject.
I've accepted anatta. No atta (self) to add into five aggregate.

let me imagine this.

A wheel is rolling. After completing a round, the wheel continues starting another round along it's path.
What do you think of this? The first round and the next round is the same? I think, not. the path of first round and the path of the next round the same? I think, not.
* The wheel is the five aggregates and its prosesses.
* The path is the time line.
* Each round is a living (born, grow, old, death)

Fot rolling, whatever that five aggregate have collected along its path would be the fuel for the wheel to roll.
* Rolling would be samsaya.
* Fuel would be karma.

This is the way I simplify the thing we call "rebirth and karma". Of course, not a complete representative one cos' dhamma itself is not a simple equation and constant.

I hope my view will help you. I'll be posting my point of view on next questions in the original thread.
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Vanda
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Re: Questions About Kamma and Rebirth

Post by Vanda »

I've accepted that all components of the whole me is just five aggregates
There is no (whole) you. That thinking will keep you lost.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
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