Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

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pt1
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by pt1 »

retrofuturist wrote:I forget, off the top of my head which sutta jhana is split into 2 in the commentaries.
Hi retro,

In abhidhamma the first two jhanas equal to the first jhana in the suttas (all the other jhanas are the same in both) - while in the suttas the transition from first to second jhana happens by abandoning vitakka (initial application/applied thinking) and vicara (sustained application/sustained thinking) together, in abhidhamma the transition from first to second jhana happens by abandoning vitakka only, and then from second jhana to third jhana by abandoning vicara only. Though I think it is acknowledged that both vitakka and vicara may be abandoned at the same time. So, there's no real difference, just a different theoretical classification so to speak.

Best wishes
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

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Hi AJ
AdvaitaJ wrote:I don't know if your last post was specifically for Ben or not, but...oh well, here goes anyway.
You are most welcome here, so please feel free to contribute!
metta

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Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Sudarsha »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Sudarsha,

Though the practise I do is not oriented towards jhana, my teachers have never been negative about developing high degrees of concentration. Their only warning is that when I find myself in a blissful or equanimous state I should be sure to remain conscious of the bliss, equanimity, etc.
Mike
Absolutely, Mike. Yet, human nature is so incredible. We think we completely understand the three poisons of imagined permanence, happiness and self and then turn around and get hung up on some impermanent, unsatisfactory and un-self idea or experience or notion. :popcorn:

Earlier I said "[...]a very senior monastic said flat out that we didn't bother about jhana." - His meaning was clear from other things he said. He had meant that in his learnèd opinion we simply were not able to do jhana. As I remember it, the teacher intimated that no one knows how, that the Buddha never said, like a map doesn't tell you how to drive a car. (It was much later that I found that the Buddha had been fairly clear about the "how to" of jhana.) There was, as well, a suggestion of "anymore" as if things in the here and now simply didn't support anything like that. So much for learnèd teachers! I am, at this time much more inclined to think that we don't have to concern ourselves with "how do I go about practising jhana" because if we follow the Buddha's instructions, if we practise in the manner he outlined, jhana will be the natural result.

As AdvaitaJ suggested ( » 21 Oct 2009 20:20 ) (and I am paraphrasing somewhat), I think that we simply set our sights on maintaining mindfulness right in front of us. My current practise is imagining/returning to my mindfulness out in front where eyes, ears, nose, mouth sort of converge, as if I were examining a spot in the palm of my hand. It's seemingly very concrete, at least at the start of the sitting. Then, I cut through the discursive array of thought to that mindfulness (Dzogchen trekcho, no big deal, we all do it, especially when someone comes up behind us and yells BOO!) - then the only thing is continually letting go from a state of increasing focus and mindfulness.

But I also understand "parimukhaṁ satiṁ upaṭṭhapetvā" as making mindfulness primary, uppermost and the focus of our practise. Perhaps the Buddha also intended this double meaning. Although my access to Pali is relatively primitive, again and again scholars like Richard Gombrich remind me that the Buddha enjoyed puns. You can say quite a lot with a pun that is otherwise difficult to express.

The more I think about it, the most obscure idea we might hear in the beginning is "letting go" and, much latter, the simplest, most rudimentary thing we actually do is "letting go". Curious. The Tibetans have a saying that the preliminaries are more important than the actual practices. I don't necessarily agree, but sometimes the simplest things we do can become profoundly important. Maybe we have to go through all the preliminary stuff, then try to master the practices before we can understand the simplest elements of the Dhamma. Experience often teaches us how to make good decisions, but we only get experience through a process that so often includes some really dumb decisions. How can it be different in our practise of the Dhamma? Sometimes we make the most rudimentarily off the wall decisions about practise, association, dedication and, only after a long while does some decent kamma kick in and we say,"ah" and try for a do-over ... obviously speaking from many years of not particularly on the ball experiences.

AdvaitaJ also said caution against viewing jhana as an end unto itself which I think is very much in line with my image of the Mediterranean cruise. Caution yourself not to get off the boat, not to get infatuated with the charming islands (didn't I read that somewhere in Homer?), not to be sidetracked.

Just let go. Don't revere jhana as the highest achievement, but as a tool for more letting go.
Sudarsha
parimukhaṁ satiṁ upaṭṭhapetvā
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Greetings Sudarsha,

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you said earlier:
Sudarsha wrote:His meaning was clear from other things he said. He had meant that in his learnèd opinion we simply were not able to do jhana.
Yes, that's a different issue. Certaintly there are some who think that it is impossible or almost impossible at this time, some who think it is very difficult, and some who think it is quite easy. Of course, it seems to depend somewhat on which definition of jhana one uses.

Mike
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by IanAnd »

Sudarsha wrote:I am, at this time much more inclined to think that we don't have to concern ourselves with "how do I go about practicing jhana" because if we follow the Buddha's instructions, if we practice in the manner he outlined, jhana will be the natural result....
Agreed. And, I speak from experience and insight into this matter. Insight that can only be gained through diligent practice and patience.

Just let go. Don't revere jhana as the highest achievement, but as a tool for more letting go.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu, in the Wings to Awakening passage that was quoted, is quite correct when he asserted that: "If breath meditation were congenial only to Buddhas and their sons, there seems little reason for the Buddha to have taught it so frequently and to such a wide variety of people."

The suttas provide several clues as to what absorption is (see MN 36 and the story of the rose apple tree) and how the Buddha used it for gaining insight and calm, or calm and insight, or both in tandem. Some people tend to make too big a deal about what absorption is. It is not as difficult a state to attain as they would have others believe. Once you have an idea what he is talking about when he says: "...quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unwholesome mental qualities — I entered and remained in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation...," then you will know that absorption is a common (although perhaps infrequent, if not intentionally pursued) state that one can enter with the proper prerequisites in place.

It was while reading this brief experience of the rose apple tree that I had a sudden intuitive realization about what the Buddha was talking about. I recalled, when as a child myself, having had similar experiences with becoming mentally absorbed in various occurrences. It could happen as a result of the simplest of occurrences, like when I was just listening to someone speak, when the mind is at ease and in a restful but alert state, I could become absorbed in the sound of the words alone or even the meaning of the words if what was being said was that fascinating. The same thing could occur when reading a particularly interesting passage in a book, or observing a pleasant scene in nature. Just about any pleasant event or occurrence will do. It just has to be something that your mind relates to.

In the case of jhana absorption, one can bring it on by fabricating a pleasant event. One of the early ways I did this was by recalling the sensation created when I would swing in one of those long chain and leather seated swings. The up swing and the back swing were usually quite long, giving the impression (when I was young) of being able to fly. This created a pleasant sensation in my head. On the forward swing and the back swing I would feel a kind of pleasant pressure in the center of my forehead. Using the recollection of this sensation when meditating, I could bring myself into the first jhana quite easily by imaging the incoming breath as the back swing and the out going breath as the forward swinging motion. And from there I could set forth to deepen the absorption by creating a feedback loop of the pleasant sensation just by paying bare attention to the in and out breathing which took place effortlessly, which would take me directly into the second jhana. From there, to get to the third and fourth jhana, it was only a matter of calming the mind even more, so that the breath became even more slight and barely there at all.

I would just caution people, in the beginning at least, not to be too concerned with being able to identify the jhana factors right away: vitakka (directed thought or attention) and vicara (examination or evaluation), piti (rapture or elation), sukha (joy, pleasure, or happiness) and ekaggata (unification of the mind on the object of meditation). Just focus on getting into the absorption through the entry point of whatever pleasant sensation that you choose. The establishment of sampajjana (clear comprehension or clear knowing) can come later, as the mind becomes more used to entering this state and clear seeing develops on its own. Otherwise, one could spoil the entry or the sustaining of the absorption by working too hard to identify the jhana factors. Just let it happen, and be glad that it is happening.

Later, as the mind becomes more used to being able to enter absorption, concentration becomes strengthened and clear seeing begins to occur on its own. When the mind becomes established, workable, and malleable, having gained imperturbability, it is then that one is able to direct the mind toward knowing and seeing.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Sudarsha »

Ah, IanAnd - The Wings to Awakening - I have tried so often to make my way through this most profound of Dhamma texts. Sadly, it appears I'm short a brain cell or three! It's so difficult. That said, I am very grateful for the discussion you have presented. My own childhood memory of something vaguely similar is staring at the stars and imagining endlessness (I don't think that, then, I knew the word infinity ) - I was just, somehow, aware that it went on and on - perhaps even the word "forever" was beyond my vocabulary then.

Over the past 10 years I developed an interest in the Mahamudra and Dzogchen practises (mostly because they were "secret" and, well, I wanted to know :spy: ). The Dzogchen practise of togal is very much like my childhood experience of imagining endlessness - but to what end one practises this is particular I hae me doots. I suspect very strongly that your take on the matter that one slips into jhana fairly much as a matter of fact is a far more common experience than many of us recognize. Certainly your explanation is very confirming for me and I am very happy to thank you for that.

When it comes to identifying the jhana factors ... I want to ask why - isn't it sufficient to just continue to let go? I think it was very important for the Buddha to identify the minutia of our mental operation because he was in the entirely unique position of, to no small extent, having to confirm for others that (1) he was what he said he was and (2) he also had to confirm for his students that they, too, were able to attain the same awakening. For myself, I seem to only get confused. When, for example, Bhante Gunaratana or the Buddha explains JOY, I don't see their explanations as what I call joy when I have those experiences - I see them as "relief" and I see that sense of relief as dependent upon contrast with something else.

So my predicament seems to be one of being somewhat less than "in tune" with the language. To me, passing from a mind of discursive thinking to one of increasing spaciousness and non-clinging is just pleasant, that is, not unpleasant. I return to the awareness right in front and, when the body's had enough, I don't seem to be able to sustain it any longer. It usually lasts about an hour.

I presume that maybe some day I'll get more sensitive (although that's a lot to presume as I've always been a bit of a curmudgeon. Still, I remain so very grateful to all of you for your clarity and scholarship. I was so hesitant to join this group and very afraid, sort of, that y'all'd laugh at my foolishness.
Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by IanAnd »

Sudarsha wrote:Ah, IanAnd - The Wings to Awakening - I have tried so often to make my way through this most profound of Dhamma texts. Sadly, it appears I'm short a brain cell or three! It's so difficult.
Don't feel bad. Take away whatever you are able to and build on that later. As concentration and clear comprehension develops, you should begin to understand more and more, based on the feedback from your own experiences. You have to be able to identify the subtle phenomena from your experiences in order to begin making some sense of all this. Just keep working at it, and it will eventually come.
Sudarsha wrote:That said, I am very grateful for the discussion you have presented. My own childhood memory of something vaguely similar is staring at the stars and imagining endlessness (I don't think that, then, I knew the word infinity ) - I was just, somehow, aware that it went on and on - perhaps even the word "forever" was beyond my vocabulary then.
I don't know whether or not this experience you describe had any of the factors of absorption involved in it since there is no discussion of any kind of feeling or sensation that may have been experienced. But generally speaking, it is that mental sensation of wonder and awe, and the physical sensation of rapt (as in "rapture", one of the jhana factors) attention on an object or subject of observation that I am primarily speaking about. Some call it an "alpha" mind state. (That description helped me to understand what others were speaking about because I had experienced "alpha mind states" before. I knew what they were talking about from experience.) Such an experience is a very pleasant experience (both mentally and physically), if you can grasp what I mean. As you can see, this is difficult to explain (especially to someone who thinks he's never experienced it before) on the Internet. You just have to kind of flow into it (absorption, that is) and go with it.

As one becomes more experienced with entering absorption, one develops the knowledge of how to get there from the get go, like from the first meditative breath. This is the advantage of using the breath as the meditation object — the breath is always with us, it never leaves (except at the death of the body). Once one understands how this works, just paying attention to the breath can be a calming activity.
Sudarsha wrote: When it comes to identifying the jhana factors ... I want to ask why - isn't it sufficient to just continue to let go? I think it was very important for the Buddha to identify the minutia of our mental operation because he was in the entirely unique position of, to no small extent, having to confirm for others that (1) he was what he said he was and (2) he also had to confirm for his students that they, too, were able to attain the same awakening.
If I'm reading your first sentence here correctly, and you are bemoaning the drudgery of having to "identify" subtle phenomena, then I quite agree with you, and I said as much in my reply. I said not to worry too much about identifying the jhana factors (especially when first beginning the practice), because I have found that it can sometimes hinder one's progress to reach and sustain absorption. Whether or not one identifies the the jhana factors is up to the person. Some people will want to, others will not. What is important is to be able to enter absorption in order to take advantage of the effect that it can have on one's concentrative ability. The calmness and tranquility that it brings can be carried into normal consciousness (i.e. after the meditation session), which then allows the mind to be a more impartial observer of phenomena.

Clue: Just so you know, it has taken me a few years of jhana practice to be able confidently to identify the factors accurately within my own experience of them. This ability is enhanced by strengthening one's ability of concentration which comes with time and practice and allows one to become more certain of the subtle phenomena that one is observing. Also, there are certain all-encompassing clues that one can look for which tell you instantly whether or not you are in the first or second level of jhana (especially if it was a fabricated experience, which is what the Buddha described in the following passage from Thanissaro's Mind Like Fire Unbound. Read all the way from "Precepts & practices" down to "Doctrines of the self". This passage describes one instruction given by the Buddha in the discourses of how to enter absorption.). From there, it is just a matter of calming the mind even more until one reaches the fourth level of "mindfulness and equanimity," which some have described as "noble silence." It's not a state that you'll soon forget.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Sudarsha »

Thank you, IanAnd - I reviewed the section from Mind Like Fire Unbound that you recommended. I read this a long time ago. This time, it made sense. Whaddyano 'bout that! :P

I didn't describe my experiences/feelings/impressions when gazing at the on-and-on-ness of the stars because I find it nearly impossible to describe things. All the time I see people (on TV, of course) who describe someone to a sketch artist! I couldn't describe my mother to a sketch artist. It's apparently a gift I do not possess.

But you have given me great encouragement, IanAnd - I will start reviewing the books and essays that didn't make any sense or very little sense when I first read them.

Perhaps I have "improved". :jumping:
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by IanAnd »

Sudarsha wrote:Thank you, IanAnd - I reviewed the section from Mind Like Fire Unbound that you recommended. I read this a long time ago. This time, it made sense. Whaddyano 'bout that! :P
It appears that you have gained some insight! Congratulations! You have much more (insightful moments, that is) to look forward to experiencing. Always be alert to your intuition and where it is leading you. If you will follow it, it will lead you to the truth. When reading about someone's experience or about meditative instruction, compare what you are reading against your own experience and endeavor to find the points of intersection. It will help you to see what is being said.
Sudarsha wrote: I didn't describe my experiences/feelings/impressions when gazing at the on-and-on-ness of the stars because I find it nearly impossible to describe things. All the time I see people (on TV, of course) who describe someone to a sketch artist! I couldn't describe my mother to a sketch artist. It's apparently a gift I do not possess.
Quite understandable. I was only trying to communicate that I wasn't really certain from the description that you did give whether or not you might have been experiencing a reverie type experience, which is characterized by rapt attention or what some call absorption. That's all.
Sudarsha wrote: But you have given me great encouragement, IanAnd - I will start reviewing the books and essays that didn't make any sense or very little sense when I first read them.
Perhaps I have "improved". :jumping:
It is a common experience that literature we read early on suddenly makes sense to us later on, somewhere down the line. When you are ready to attempt the practice of satipatthana, there are two books I can recommend that had a tremendous influence on my progress. The first is the classic Nyanaponika Thera tome The Heart of Buddhist Meditation. It goes into some description of "bare attention" and how to use that in conjunction with clear comprehension to deepen your practice. This is not to be missed. It helps to clarify the "how to" of satipatthana — how it is to be properly practiced. The second book will delve into a more detailed description of the many ways that satipatthana is used to approach awakening directly. That book is Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization. What he has to say in the text and the footnotes, it is almost like having the Buddha right there to guide you through the practice. His insight in that book is astounding. Also, it is based upon an understanding of the Dhamma as it is taught in the suttas. If you follow the suttas, you cannot go wrong.

In peace,
Ian
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

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I feel compelled to note here for the sake of those early on the path that in order to ride a bicycle hands-free we need to have a very good comfortable experiential relationship with the essentials of bike riding first...no point in trying to ride hands-free until we can ride a bike with a at least a basic level of confidence and experience.
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Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Sudarsha »

Many, many thanks, IanAnd. I have read both books that you recommend and will dig them out for re-reading. Yes, with continued practise comes insight. This experience is familiar to me. Regarding looking at the on-and-on-ness of the stars when I was little, perhaps reverie is a useful term. It let me feel ... oops, no idea what the words for that are. I'll take a stab and say "big" ... now, see? I am at a complete loss, even now with, believe it or not, a couple of university degrees! One in English literature, too.

:shock:

Thanks to you, pink_trike, for your very correct words. Despite having practised for many years and having read many books, attended many talks, yadda, yadda, it's like the really silly joke: the man asks little boy, why are you pulling that chain; little boy replies have you ever tried pushing one? - I'm afraid that during my many years of learning to practice many mistaken twists and turns were not at all unlike trying to push a chain.

So much thanks to all of you. This is a wonderful discussion venue and I hope to learn a great deal from all of you.
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by catmoon »

Does anyone here understand the difference between applied thinking and sustained thinking? Seems to me that if you are going to apply a thought it has to be sustained or you are not applying it. So the two terms mean the same thing to me. This has to be wrong. Doesn't it?
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by puthujjana »

Hej catmoon,

this is the classical explanation of vitakka-vicāra:
Nyanatiloka wrote:
vitakka-vicāra

'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained thought') are verbal functions (vacī-sankhāra: s. sankhāra) of the mind, the so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are constituents of the 1st absorption (s. jhāna), but absent in the higher absorptions.

(1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, giving it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to the object.

(2) "Discursive thinking (vicāra) is the roaming about and moving to and fro of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind" (Vis.M. IV).

(1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its resounding; (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.).

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_ ... icaara.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by puthujjana »

Hej Jack,
BlackBird wrote:Here's an essay by Leigh Brasington called 'Interpretation of the Jhanas' which might provide some content to muse over:
http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
thank you for giving this link.

I like Leigh's conclusions, especially the fourth:
Leigh Basington wrote: 1. Mistakes in the above are quite possible!
2. There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas.
3. We don't really know exactly what type of Jhanas the Buddha and his disciples were practicing.
4. Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than a tool, what is really important is not so much which version you learn, but that you apply the jhanic state of mind to insight practice, either while still in the Jhana or immediately thereafter.
with metta
:anjali:
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by catmoon »

puthujjana wrote:Hej catmoon,

this is the classical explanation of vitakka-vicāra:
Nyanatiloka wrote:
vitakka-vicāra

'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained thought') are verbal functions (vacī-sankhāra: s. sankhāra) of the mind, the so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are constituents of the 1st absorption (s. jhāna), but absent in the higher absorptions.

(1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, giving it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to the object.

(2) "Discursive thinking (vicāra) is the roaming about and moving to and fro of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind" (Vis.M. IV).

(1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its resounding; (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.).

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_ ... icaara.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with metta
:anjali:
Wow, finally a clear answer, and in perfect accord with experience and what little Dharma i know too. Good stuff.
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