Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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mikenz66
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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:45 pm

The sutta lists four ways of developing samadhi, which is translated as concentration. The last two lead to mindfulness and insight.

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:58 pm

What is the perception of light?
Why it has given such a importance? (say over space or any other Kasina objects)
:thinking:
PS: I found the following link:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=3681" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by waterchan » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:47 am

mikenz66 wrote:The sutta lists four ways of developing samadhi, which is translated as concentration. The last two lead to mindfulness and insight.

Mike
Is it right to say that the first two don't?

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srivijaya
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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by srivijaya » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:48 am

waterchan wrote:the part of the sutta you quoted does not say that this insight happened during the first jhana.
Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided
There's a dynamic process of investigation and relinquishment going on which would be impossible in an unconscious or unaware state. The first jhana is even described as "accompanied by directed thought & evaluation". No sign of any of that in AB's description of 1st jhana.

Also, nowhere in the suttas does it explain that this process of insight happened after the monk arose from a state of oblivion.

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by robertk » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:58 am

srivijaya wrote:
Also, nowhere in the suttas does it explain that this process of insight happened after the monk arose from a state of oblivion.
Perhaps in your extensive study of the suttas you somehow overlooked ones like this:
Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Also jhana is not At all oblivion. There is profound awareness of the object, it is not like some sort of unconsciouness or deep sleep.

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:01 am

Hi Robert
This is emerging from Neither perception nor non-perception.
It is understandable.
How about other seven Jhana?
Can you give something similar?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by robertk » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:18 am

Do i need to Sarathw?

Obviously the processes involved in jhana are utterly different from the sense door and vitthi cittas.
There is a continual taking of the same object again and again- how could vipassana insight t, which is all about distinguishing nama and rupa in the sense door and mindoor processes, arise during mundane jhana?

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:59 am

Please read Page 80 diagram in Abhidhamma - Narada.
There are 27 Cittas in Rupavacara and Arupavacara Jhanas
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by srivijaya » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:40 am

robertk wrote:Perhaps in your extensive study of the suttas you somehow overlooked ones like this:
An irrelevant and sarcastic comment, as you quote an arupa jhana. We were looking at factors of the 1st Jhana. Your quote only serves to highlight the difference between them - the arupa are different. What AB is describing for the form jhanas could perhaps be attributed to the formless.
Also jhana is not At all oblivion. There is profound awareness of the object, it is not like some sort of unconsciouness or deep sleep.
Which I agree with but it's not what AB teaches. He teaches that insight is always post-jhana, which begs the question what insight is there within an AB jhana.

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by robertk » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:25 am

Patthana:
(Faultless Triplet, Kusala-ttika, VII, Investigation Chapter, pañha-våra,

Object, § 404):

Faultless state (kusala dhamma) is related to faultless state by object-condition.

Having emerged from

jhåna, (one) reviews it. (One) reviews (such acts) formerly well done.

Having emerged from jhåna, (one) reviews the jhåna. Learners or common

worldlings practise insight into impermanence, suffering and

impersonality of the faultless (state"

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:37 am

waterchan wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:The sutta lists four ways of developing samadhi, which is translated as concentration. The last two lead to mindfulness and insight.

Mike
Is it right to say that the first two don't?
The Theravada interpretation would be that they are useful preparations that purify the mind, so in that sense they could "lead" to insight. However, as Robert points out, if on is in jhana (and Ajahn Brahm's/the Commentators' definition is correct) then insight is only possible after emerging.

:anjali:
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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by Sylvester » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:31 pm

Errh, I don't think it's a Theravada thingy. If insight is the product of mental examination, then it would be impossible in the Attainments - DN 9 and DA 28. If one thinks (ceteti) or generates a volition (abhisaṅkharoti) in any of the Attainments, one crashes out and lands back in familiar territory, ie kāmasaññā .

One could try arguing that insight happens silently, but given one of insight's proxy verb samanupassati (considers), I seriously doubt that interpretation.

:anjali:

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by srivijaya » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:41 pm

robertk wrote:Patthana:
(Faultless Triplet, Kusala-ttika, VII, Investigation Chapter, pañha-våra,

Object, § 404):

Faultless state (kusala dhamma) is related to faultless state by object-condition.

Having emerged from

jhåna, (one) reviews it. (One) reviews (such acts) formerly well done.

Having emerged from jhåna, (one) reviews the jhåna. Learners or common

worldlings practise insight into impermanence, suffering and

impersonality of the faultless (state"
Abhidhamma rather than sutta - but I've just noted the link in your signature to your Abhidhamma site, so I've nothing further to add.

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by waterchan » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:32 pm

srivijaya wrote:
waterchan wrote:the part of the sutta you quoted does not say that this insight happened during the first jhana.
Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided
There's a dynamic process of investigation and relinquishment going on which would be impossible in an unconscious or unaware state. The first jhana is even described as "accompanied by directed thought & evaluation". No sign of any of that in AB's description of 1st jhana.

Also, nowhere in the suttas does it explain that this process of insight happened after the monk arose from a state of oblivion.
Did you read any of the two links I posted before? Like I said, vitakka and vicara does not mean "directed thought & evaluation", even though it is sometimes translated as such.

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Re: Jhana definition by Ajahn Brahm

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:46 pm

SN 48.40 may be relevant here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 66#p343666
Zom wrote:SN 48.40 says that pleasant bodily feeling ends only in the 3rd jhana.
[See link for some quotes from the sutta.]

:anjali:
Mike

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