could this be the paper you were thinking of?
http://www.attan.com/BODHISATTVA%20IDEA ... AVAADA.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
couldn't find any direct links to other versions though
The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
I don't think the Buddha discussed this, perfecting the paramitas over countless lifetimes.TheDhamma wrote:I don't have the exact quote / reference but it might be in the Jataka or Buddhavamsa. I definitely remember reading it in one of Radhika Abeysekera's books, probably the, Practicising the Dhamma with a View to Nibbana.Doctor Who wrote: Where did Our Lord introduce this " was perfecting the paramitas over countless lifetime"?
I always thought it was introduced for the first time in the Lotus Sutra, A Mahayana dharmakaya sutra.
I think it's one of those made up from Dharam kaya mahayana things.
I wonder how much Mahayan has blurred into theravadian thought
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
Several centuries after the Buddha, before the appearance of the Mahayana, almost every school of Buddhist thought was discussing the issue of the Buddha and how he became a Buddha. This is clear in literature such as the Jatakas, the Apadanas, the Nidanas, the Buddhavamsa, the Cariyapitaka, and so on.Doctor Who wrote:I don't think the Buddha discussed this, perfecting the paramitas over countless lifetimes.TheDhamma wrote:I don't have the exact quote / reference but it might be in the Jataka or Buddhavamsa. I definitely remember reading it in one of Radhika Abeysekera's books, probably the, Practicising the Dhamma with a View to Nibbana.Doctor Who wrote: Where did Our Lord introduce this " was perfecting the paramitas over countless lifetime"?
I always thought it was introduced for the first time in the Lotus Sutra, A Mahayana dharmakaya sutra.
I think it's one of those made up from Dharam kaya mahayana things.
I wonder how much Mahayan has blurred into theravadian thought
In fact, it is this line of thought that develops into the basic Mahayana idea of becoming a Buddha, and not the other way around.
The line of thinking that runs "EITHER Theravada suttas / vinaya OR Mahayana" is causing so much confusion. The idea that if it isn't in the Suttas or Vinaya, then it must be Mahayana or Mahayana influence, is very problematic. Things are just not that simple, and this overlooks maybe 75% of Buddhist thought of this period.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
Hi,
Regarding the origin of Bodhisatta ideal in Theravada a lot has been said in the thread:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 79&p=26124" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As for the Mahayana sutras, there's a passage from Lotus sutra:
adhimānīnna seveta vinaye cāgame sthitān|
arhantasaṁmatān bhikṣūn duḥśīlāṁścaiva varjayet||4||
One should avoid those arrogant, who follow the Vinaya and adhere to Agama,
Monks with dubious virtue who consider the Arahantship to be topmost.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... otus14.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mit.edu/~stclair/Lotus14.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://lotus.nichirenshu.org/lotus/sutr ... chap14.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/dp/i ... ae511dfef6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Best wishes, Dmytro
Regarding the origin of Bodhisatta ideal in Theravada a lot has been said in the thread:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 79&p=26124" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As for the Mahayana sutras, there's a passage from Lotus sutra:
adhimānīnna seveta vinaye cāgame sthitān|
arhantasaṁmatān bhikṣūn duḥśīlāṁścaiva varjayet||4||
One should avoid those arrogant, who follow the Vinaya and adhere to Agama,
Monks with dubious virtue who consider the Arahantship to be topmost.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... otus14.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mit.edu/~stclair/Lotus14.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://lotus.nichirenshu.org/lotus/sutr ... chap14.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.uwest.edu/sanskritcanon/dp/i ... ae511dfef6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Best wishes, Dmytro
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
Manapa,
Ah yes, the Samuels piece is the one I've read. Very good essay. I first saw it on ES, along with a great article about the use of the term "Hinayana".
Dhammakid
Ah yes, the Samuels piece is the one I've read. Very good essay. I first saw it on ES, along with a great article about the use of the term "Hinayana".
Dhammakid
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
You know, a fundamental question we could ask is: Does Theravada allow for the possibility that any Buddhist practitioner can and should work towards Buddhahood?
To me, that's the main difference between the two. It seems all of the debates surrounding the legitimacy of certain texts, teachers, teachings, practices, sects, etc all stem from this question - can we all become Buddhas, or not?
But here's the thing: even if Theravada admits that anyone can become a Buddha, that doesn't necessarily mean one has to switch to Mahayana to do so. I mean, if Theravada allows it, then might as well practice with it, make the vows and do all the other prereqs, and also follow the early teachings of the Buddha since they are the closest to his original words. Doesn't seem like switching to Mahayana is necessary, unless Theravada doesn't allow for it and one wants to follow the path towards Buddhahood. Then I guess they would have to switch to Mahayana.
This is just speculation, of course. But I thought I would throw it out there.
Dhammakid
To me, that's the main difference between the two. It seems all of the debates surrounding the legitimacy of certain texts, teachers, teachings, practices, sects, etc all stem from this question - can we all become Buddhas, or not?
But here's the thing: even if Theravada admits that anyone can become a Buddha, that doesn't necessarily mean one has to switch to Mahayana to do so. I mean, if Theravada allows it, then might as well practice with it, make the vows and do all the other prereqs, and also follow the early teachings of the Buddha since they are the closest to his original words. Doesn't seem like switching to Mahayana is necessary, unless Theravada doesn't allow for it and one wants to follow the path towards Buddhahood. Then I guess they would have to switch to Mahayana.
This is just speculation, of course. But I thought I would throw it out there.
Dhammakid
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
Yes, good points and I believe the Theravada does say this is possible. For example, the Buddha and previous Buddhas making a resolve to be a samma-sam-buddha and the other disciples making resolves to be the "chief monks" of a samma-sam-buddha or the "chief nuns" of a samma-sam-buddha and the fact that Yasodhara followed the Buddha as his wife in so many lifetimes. Thus, there appears to be the case where beings could make such resolutions in the Theravada.Dhammakid wrote:You know, a fundamental question we could ask is: Does Theravada allow for the possibility that any Buddhist practitioner can and should work towards Buddhahood?
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
What seems to be a difference if held to be literal is the idea that a Bodhisattva can somehow postpone their Buddhahood.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
Well thanks for helping.
I'm so jaded on the whole thing. hopefully you never end up where i am .Or quite possibily it's where you all will end up.
Since a kid at 15 I took to the path. I'm 54. every sect i joined praised me for my efforts. I always gave 500%. Did the nichiren thing after years of meditation and study of everything available in the early 70's.
Hell bakc then Lobsang Rampa was considered Tibetan Buddhist study material. lol.
When I entered Tibetan Buddhism with a qualified respected Tulku i studied everything i could get me hands on. I have a small fortune invested in books and initiations...lol.
At one point my meditations and practice was 3 hours every morning before work.
I'm not some flake who calls himself Buddhist and has zero expierence.
The Thing is thus. I don't see the Buddhas and the enlightenment pouring out the millions of practioners and monks.
I've been around, maybe i'm so slathered in Dukkha i can't see the forest for the trees.
But add to the fact that a lot of what i thought the Buddha taught was in fact , well you know.....
And then i always get from these questions the whole Buddhist council putting it all together 200 years later.....lol....i mean look at all the sects and schools of thought that are a direct result of waiting for 200 years to put anything in writing.....
I'm starting to think thus.
The buddha knew all this was going to happen. Cringed at the thought of sutras with uber sci fi stories such as the lotus sutra.
Realized it was inevatable due to the nature and ignorance and what suffering and poverty really does to mankind. Add religious hope and voila...
The Buddha did say to question authority. I'm sure of that, even the power mad could not somehow get rid of that.
then he did say "do not look to any god or demon or even me to help you"
With that in mind I asked a Rinpoche "whats with the millions of people burning incence doing all this stuff for luck and long life and giving billions to thousands of temples.
And whats with the heads of these temples allowing this to go on."
He just smiled and shrugged, then nodded to me.
Soooooooo. It's like the Buddha has been turned into a larger than mythological being.He has been replaced as someone greater than any God Creator you can think of.
The be all and end all to everything.
I say he is cringing at this.
I say he purposely told everyone not to write stuff down for his teachings were way simpler than what they have become.
and we will never know exactly what he taught.
jaded beyond belief I is.
I'm so jaded on the whole thing. hopefully you never end up where i am .Or quite possibily it's where you all will end up.
Since a kid at 15 I took to the path. I'm 54. every sect i joined praised me for my efforts. I always gave 500%. Did the nichiren thing after years of meditation and study of everything available in the early 70's.
Hell bakc then Lobsang Rampa was considered Tibetan Buddhist study material. lol.
When I entered Tibetan Buddhism with a qualified respected Tulku i studied everything i could get me hands on. I have a small fortune invested in books and initiations...lol.
At one point my meditations and practice was 3 hours every morning before work.
I'm not some flake who calls himself Buddhist and has zero expierence.
The Thing is thus. I don't see the Buddhas and the enlightenment pouring out the millions of practioners and monks.
I've been around, maybe i'm so slathered in Dukkha i can't see the forest for the trees.
But add to the fact that a lot of what i thought the Buddha taught was in fact , well you know.....
And then i always get from these questions the whole Buddhist council putting it all together 200 years later.....lol....i mean look at all the sects and schools of thought that are a direct result of waiting for 200 years to put anything in writing.....
I'm starting to think thus.
The buddha knew all this was going to happen. Cringed at the thought of sutras with uber sci fi stories such as the lotus sutra.
Realized it was inevatable due to the nature and ignorance and what suffering and poverty really does to mankind. Add religious hope and voila...
The Buddha did say to question authority. I'm sure of that, even the power mad could not somehow get rid of that.
then he did say "do not look to any god or demon or even me to help you"
With that in mind I asked a Rinpoche "whats with the millions of people burning incence doing all this stuff for luck and long life and giving billions to thousands of temples.
And whats with the heads of these temples allowing this to go on."
He just smiled and shrugged, then nodded to me.
Soooooooo. It's like the Buddha has been turned into a larger than mythological being.He has been replaced as someone greater than any God Creator you can think of.
The be all and end all to everything.
I say he is cringing at this.
I say he purposely told everyone not to write stuff down for his teachings were way simpler than what they have become.
and we will never know exactly what he taught.
jaded beyond belief I is.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
add on to abouve diatribe lol...
I say that one had to be in a person to person relationship with Him to actually gain the true result of what he was all about. He prolly knew people would go gaga and like he did not mind if they created a loving kindness attitude from it all.
But enlightenment and what he Knew and was...person to person only.
I say that one had to be in a person to person relationship with Him to actually gain the true result of what he was all about. He prolly knew people would go gaga and like he did not mind if they created a loving kindness attitude from it all.
But enlightenment and what he Knew and was...person to person only.
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
Hello Doctor Who,
Thanks for confiding in us - definitely not a diatribe. This simply mirrors the journey many of us have taken and are still on. I myself went from devout Christian (and I mean devout - communicant, sunday school teacher, youth groups, marriage, kids in Church Schools and following the same pattern .... then, disillusion, finding Buddhism, finding Theravada, moving into Vajrayana, then Dzogchen. Attending retreats and teachings, weekly practice groups, hundreds of [expensive] books, travelling to see Teachers and receive empowerments and on and on and on.) Then back to my "Hearts Home" ... Theravada. And who knows what this mind-stream has done in other lifetimes?
But - that is Sa.msara "The Wandering On". Unless we progress on the Path to Nibbana, we are doomed to repeat all this tiresome suffering again and again and again and again.
In the Buddha's day, writing was just for things like government and commerce. and there was widespread illiteracy. For really important things, where it was critical that no alteration occur ( as can happen so very easily, deliberately or accidentally when writing is used) - the Oral Tradition was used. The Buddha instituted in his lifetime the Chanting Together by large groups of specially designated Bhikkhus - the Bhanakas (Hearers). The Bhanakas had portions of the Teachings allocated to each group, and so there were The Digha Bhanakas, The Majjhima Bhanakas etc.
It was only hundreds of years later in Sri Lanka, in a time of famine and warfare, with many bhikkhus dying, and with Buddhism all but wiped out in India, that the MahaSangha decided the Buddhist Canon and its commentaries needed to be written down.
They were engraved on Ola Leaves. Many of us have been to Sri Lanka and have had the inestimable good fortune to have seen demonstrations of this being done at the ancient rock temple of Aluvihara Temple (where the Tipitaka was originally written down) in the Matale district 26 km from Kandy.
The Suttas are rather like the memory prompts - the dot points of the most important information to be transmitted - similar to those a public speaker carries on a little card in his hand. Anything that is repeated is to be seen as something important which was highlighted by the repetition.
As I understand it, the Pali Suttas are teaching vehicles whose meanings are densely packed layer on layer. They are not to be read as an ordinary page of print, but require 'unpacking' by someone learned in the Dhamma. This condensed form was necessary in order that the Teachings would not be lost in the years before they were finally put into writing. It allowed them to be memorised by the large groups of bhikkhus (bhanakas) assigned to each portion of the Tipitaka. They are not verbatim reports of chats and conversations. This memorisation is said to have commenced before the parinibbana of the Buddha.
"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves." (Ari sutta).
Venerable Mahá Kassapa, the elected head of the First Council. Cúlavagga Xl,1,1 (ii,284) reiterated:
"Come, friends: let us recite the Teaching and the Discipline before what is not the Teaching shines forth and the Teaching is put aside, before what is not the Discipline shines forth and the Discipline is put aside, before those who speak what is not the Teaching become strong and those who speak what is the Teaching become weak, before those who speak what is not the Discipline become strong and those who speak what is the Discipline become weak."
metta
Chris
Thanks for confiding in us - definitely not a diatribe. This simply mirrors the journey many of us have taken and are still on. I myself went from devout Christian (and I mean devout - communicant, sunday school teacher, youth groups, marriage, kids in Church Schools and following the same pattern .... then, disillusion, finding Buddhism, finding Theravada, moving into Vajrayana, then Dzogchen. Attending retreats and teachings, weekly practice groups, hundreds of [expensive] books, travelling to see Teachers and receive empowerments and on and on and on.) Then back to my "Hearts Home" ... Theravada. And who knows what this mind-stream has done in other lifetimes?
But - that is Sa.msara "The Wandering On". Unless we progress on the Path to Nibbana, we are doomed to repeat all this tiresome suffering again and again and again and again.
In the Buddha's day, writing was just for things like government and commerce. and there was widespread illiteracy. For really important things, where it was critical that no alteration occur ( as can happen so very easily, deliberately or accidentally when writing is used) - the Oral Tradition was used. The Buddha instituted in his lifetime the Chanting Together by large groups of specially designated Bhikkhus - the Bhanakas (Hearers). The Bhanakas had portions of the Teachings allocated to each group, and so there were The Digha Bhanakas, The Majjhima Bhanakas etc.
It was only hundreds of years later in Sri Lanka, in a time of famine and warfare, with many bhikkhus dying, and with Buddhism all but wiped out in India, that the MahaSangha decided the Buddhist Canon and its commentaries needed to be written down.
They were engraved on Ola Leaves. Many of us have been to Sri Lanka and have had the inestimable good fortune to have seen demonstrations of this being done at the ancient rock temple of Aluvihara Temple (where the Tipitaka was originally written down) in the Matale district 26 km from Kandy.
The Suttas are rather like the memory prompts - the dot points of the most important information to be transmitted - similar to those a public speaker carries on a little card in his hand. Anything that is repeated is to be seen as something important which was highlighted by the repetition.
As I understand it, the Pali Suttas are teaching vehicles whose meanings are densely packed layer on layer. They are not to be read as an ordinary page of print, but require 'unpacking' by someone learned in the Dhamma. This condensed form was necessary in order that the Teachings would not be lost in the years before they were finally put into writing. It allowed them to be memorised by the large groups of bhikkhus (bhanakas) assigned to each portion of the Tipitaka. They are not verbatim reports of chats and conversations. This memorisation is said to have commenced before the parinibbana of the Buddha.
"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves." (Ari sutta).
Venerable Mahá Kassapa, the elected head of the First Council. Cúlavagga Xl,1,1 (ii,284) reiterated:
"Come, friends: let us recite the Teaching and the Discipline before what is not the Teaching shines forth and the Teaching is put aside, before what is not the Discipline shines forth and the Discipline is put aside, before those who speak what is not the Teaching become strong and those who speak what is the Teaching become weak, before those who speak what is not the Discipline become strong and those who speak what is the Discipline become weak."
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
Thank you
and a big
AHA!!!!
Venerable Mahá Kassapa, the elected head of the First Council. Cúlavagga Xl,1,1 (ii,284) reiterated:
"Come, friends: let us recite the Teaching and the Discipline before what is not the Teaching shines forth and the Teaching is put aside, before what is not the Discipline shines forth and the Discipline is put aside, before those who speak what is not the Teaching become strong and those who speak what is the Teaching become weak, before those who speak what is not the Discipline become strong and those who speak what is the Discipline become weak."
metta
Chris
and a big
AHA!!!!
Venerable Mahá Kassapa, the elected head of the First Council. Cúlavagga Xl,1,1 (ii,284) reiterated:
"Come, friends: let us recite the Teaching and the Discipline before what is not the Teaching shines forth and the Teaching is put aside, before what is not the Discipline shines forth and the Discipline is put aside, before those who speak what is not the Teaching become strong and those who speak what is the Teaching become weak, before those who speak what is not the Discipline become strong and those who speak what is the Discipline become weak."
metta
Chris
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
Wonderful, Chris. I learned quite a bit from that.
Dhammakid
Dhammakid
Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
Thank you so very much Chris
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada Buddhism
I know eh! thought about this tonight at work.
like i said big Ah Ha/eureaka moment.
like i said big Ah Ha/eureaka moment.