Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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smokey
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Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by smokey »

I have a question regarding gaining insight knowledge. My question is this: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock? What I mean by mental shock is flash in consciousness. For an example when you have this train of thought: Reality is an illusion. Then your mind is shocked and it produces a flash in consciousness.. Of course I consider reality real. But before when I thought that it is an illusion, I experienced such sensation when I had such a train of thought and was convinced of such belief. Thank you in advance for your answers.

With metta -smokey
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Rui Sousa
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by Rui Sousa »

I believe that, sometimes, for a moment there is some excitement when something is known.

But I also believe that the development of equanimity tends to make this moments less intense.
With Metta
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catmoon
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by catmoon »

smokey wrote:I have a question regarding gaining insight knowledge. My question is this: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock? What I mean by mental shock is flash in consciousness. For an example when you have this train of thought: Reality is an illusion. Then your mind is shocked and it produces a flash in consciousness.. Of course I consider reality real. But before when I thought that it is an illusion, I experienced such sensation when I had such a train of thought and was convinced of such belief. Thank you in advance for your answers.


Just for background, there is a phenomenon, fairly well established in psychological and religious writing, called a photistic experience. I just tried Googling it but resources are pretty thin.

Consider the stories told by people who encounter aliens: some mention standing in a brilliant white light.
When people encounter angels, again the brilliant white light and perhaps choirs are heard.
Notice in the Zen that a lightning metaphor is often used.

Basically, the mind can and does produce these things. Whether or not they are real I leave to you.
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Catmoon,

This is getting a little off topic, but the photistic thing you mention sounds like meditation nimittas ("signs") which can appear to be visual (or other) experiences.

I thought Smokey was talking more about a sense of disorientation and "wow" than that sort of thing.

Mike
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catmoon
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by catmoon »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Catmoon,

This is getting a little off topic, but the photistic thing you mention sounds like meditation nimittas ("signs") which can appear to be visual (or other) experiences.

I thought Smokey was talking more about a sense of disorientation and "wow" than that sort of thing.

Mike
Well a nimitta is a kind of eidetic image, so I'm not sure if that would be the same. What I've heard sounds more like looking at a radiant object than being immersed in radiant light, but I know very little about it.

All I'm saying is that mind can put on a spectacular light show.
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by mikenz66 »

catmoon wrote: Well a nimitta is a kind of eidetic image, so I'm not sure if that would be the same. What I've heard sounds more like looking at a radiant object than being immersed in radiant light, but I know very little about it.
Little about nimittas or photistic objects?
catmoon wrote: All I'm saying is that mind can put on a spectacular light show.
Yes, that's certainly true, and most of it is just noise as far as I can tell. At least for me...

Mike
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smokey
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by smokey »

Mental shock is not a visual experience and thus you do not see anything, it is a metaphorical flash, flash in consciousness. Such an experience occurs when one has train of thought in mental activity that is very surprising. For an example when one thinks of a reality on a way that he has never thought before. But perhaps such an experience only occurs because of thinking and not of gaining insight knowledge.
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catmoon
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by catmoon »

smokey wrote:Mental shock is not a visual experience and thus you do not see anything, it is a metaphorical flash, flash in consciousness. Such an experience occurs when one has train of thought in mental activity that is very surprising. For an example when one thinks of a reality on a way that he has never thought before. But perhaps such an experience only occurs because of thinking and not of gaining insight knowledge.
Well mental shock is probably real. I know that I have experienced very sudden, almost wrenching shifts in consciousness while meditating. Sometimes its like a sudden jump in awareness and alertness. These things happen. I just note them and continue.
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by IanAnd »

smokey wrote:Mental shock is not a visual experience and thus you do not see anything, it is a metaphorical flash, flash in consciousness. Such an experience occurs when one has train of thought in mental activity that is very surprising. For an example when one thinks of a reality [in] a way that he has never thought before. But perhaps such an experience only occurs because of thinking and not of gaining insight knowledge.
I think I understand what you are getting at, smokey.

It's kind of like when one has the first initial sudden realization about anatta and the process involved with the six sense spheres. When one sees that what is seen is not self, what it heard is not self, what is smelled, tasted, touched, or cognized is not self, this experience can come in a sudden rush of realization, because this was not how one had been previously conditioned to view reality. This "rush of realization," I presume, is what you are referring to as "mental shock." It is usually a one-time event, taking place during the moment when the realization is being made. This event remains in one's memory, but is never really repeated in quite the same way in the future, because the "shock" of the event has worn off. But the memory of having been "shocked out of our old habits of viewing reality" remains. Yes. Such an experience is quite real.

Does that answer your question?
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smokey
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by smokey »

IanAnd wrote:
smokey wrote:Mental shock is not a visual experience and thus you do not see anything, it is a metaphorical flash, flash in consciousness. Such an experience occurs when one has train of thought in mental activity that is very surprising. For an example when one thinks of a reality [in] a way that he has never thought before. But perhaps such an experience only occurs because of thinking and not of gaining insight knowledge.
I think I understand what you are getting at, smokey.

It's kind of like when one has the first initial sudden realization about anatta and the process involved with the six sense spheres. When one sees that what is seen is not self, what it heard is not self, what is smelled, tasted, touched, or cognized is not self, this experience can come in a sudden rush of realization, because this was not how one had been previously conditioned to view reality. This "rush of realization," I presume, is what you are referring to as "mental shock." It is usually a one-time event, taking place during the moment when the realization is being made. This event remains in one's memory, but is never really repeated in quite the same way in the future, because the "shock" of the event has worn off. But the memory of having been "shocked out of our old habits of viewing reality" remains. Yes. Such an experience is quite real.

Does that answer your question?
I suppose it does answer my question. Thank you.
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by Annapurna »

mikenz66 wrote:
I thought Smokey was talking more about a sense of disorientation and "wow" than that sort of thing.

Mike
That is also how I took it.

Smokey, I had moments of insights rushing in suddenly that left me quite ...disorientated perhaps.

I needed to be alone and withdraw.

I was fine though. Just didn't want to stop it through dealing with external influences.
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by Sanghamitta »

People experience the results of meditation in various ways according to a number of factors. There is no right way, only the way that it will take for you. There are commonalities, but also differences. A teacher is a great help in sorting things out. Pointing out the way forward, making suggestions to enhance progress sorting out the difference at times between insight and the arising of psychological disturbances due to sankharas.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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smokey
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by smokey »

Annabel wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
I thought Smokey was talking more about a sense of disorientation and "wow" than that sort of thing.

Mike
That is also how I took it.

Smokey, I had moments of insights rushing in suddenly that left me quite ...disorientated perhaps.

I needed to be alone and withdraw.

I was fine though. Just didn't want to stop it through dealing with external influences.
Dear Annabel, can you tell me what insight knowledges have you gained?

With Metta and Karuna -smokey
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by Ben »

Hi Smokey
smokey wrote:Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock? What I mean by mental shock is flash in consciousness. For an example when you have this train of thought: Reality is an illusion. Then your mind is shocked and it produces a flash in consciousness.. Of course I consider reality real. But before when I thought that it is an illusion, I experienced such sensation when I had such a train of thought and was convinced of such belief. Thank you in advance for your answers.
I think we have to be careful to remain equanimous and remain aware of whatever is going on and not to develop craving towards this or that experience or to ascribe meaning to this or that experience. Whatever you experience is just the interplay of dhatu, elements.
Ultimately, the experience of naana is no different to any other experience. They are impermanent, they become a source of dukkha if one develops attachment to them, and they're anatta - not self.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Does gaining an insight knowledge cause mental shock?

Post by pink_trike »

Yes, there can be a period of shock as insight reorders perception/senses...sometimes this reordering can even be blissful or disorienting. On occasion, it can be experienced as if a flash of light in the dark, or a gradual sense of more light (less dark), or like a light bulb going on suddenly. There can also be tingling in the body -as if an electrical shock. The body/mind has a sophisticated electrical system that sometimes goes nova as an insight-triggered aha! dharma (with a little "d") explodes into appearance. As Ben points out...best to just note these appearances and experiences and not be enchanted by them. Just more fireworks and potential for distraction and dissatisfaction.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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