Questions about stream-winners

[mikenz66]

Hi Vincent, yes, it's the recurrence that's the problem...

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... tm#anusaya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anusaya: The 7 'latent tendencies', hidden inclinations, or latent liabilities are:

1: The latent tendency to sense-greed kāma-rāga samyojana,
2: The latent tendency to aversion patigha,
3: The latent tendency to speculative opinion ditthi,
4: The latent tendency to skeptical doubt vicikicchā,
5: The latent tendency to conceit & pride māna,
6: The latent tendency to craving for continued existence bhava-rāga,
7: The latent tendency to ignorance avijjā D. 33; A. VII, 11, 12.

These things are called 'latent tendencies' since, in consequence of their endurance, they ever and again - life after life- tend to become the conditions for the arising of ever new sense-greed, etc. Vis.M XXII, 60.

Yam. VII, first determines in which beings such and such latent tendencies exist, and which latent tendencies, and with regard to what, and in which sphere of existence. Thereafter it gives an explanation concerning their overcoming, their penetration, etc. Cf. Guide VI vii. According to Kath. several ancient Buddhist schools erroneously held the opinion that the anusayas as such, meant merely latent, hence kammically neutral qualities, which however contradicts the Theravāda conception. Cf. Guide V, 88, 108, 139.

Mike

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

More on the anusaya's ( underlying tendencies ).
MN 148. 28 talks about the anusaya's in relation to the three feelings.
MN 64. 3 and 64. 6 are very relevant to this discussion. This sutta seems to be mainly about the five lower fetters, and the path to their abandonment.
64.3 : Explains that there is an anusaya for each of the five lower fetters. A "young tender infant" is said to have these anusaya's, but not yet the five lower fetters.
64. 5 : Talks about the "untaught ordinary person" and says that he :
"..abides with a mind obsessed and enslaved by identity view, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from the arisen identity view ; and when that identity view has become habitual and is uneradicated in him, it is a lower fetter" ( identity view = sakkaya ditthi ).
64. 6 : Compares the preceding with " the well-taught noble disciple", he :
"... does not abide with a mind obsessed and enslaved by identity view ; he understands as it actually is the escape from the arisen identity view, and identity view together with the underlying tendency to it is abandoned in him".

Quotations are from : Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha. Bhikkhu Bodhi. 1995. Wisdom Publications. Boston.

So, sakkaya ditthi ( view of self ) arises and when it becomes habitual then it is the first of the five lower fetters. The problem is in the next section about the "well-taught noble disciple", who is meant here ? It can not be a stream-winner because all five fetters have been abandoned. It must be either a non-returner or an arahant. If, as I suspect, it is an arahant which is meant, then it tells us nothing about when or where on the path view of self is abandoned. Except that those who have completed the noble eightfold path have abandoned the view of self.
So these passages can be understood in two ways. The puthujjana can see here a non-returner who has broken the five lower fetters. He understands this to be a "stage" on the noble eightfold path. On the other hand, the ariya savaka can see here an arahant, which fits with his understanding that there are no "stages" on the noble eightfold path.
These passages appear to be an explanation of the non-returner, as a stage on the noble eightfold path, intended for puthujjana's, but open to another interpretation.
Those of you who have read my other thread will know that I reject the four paths and four fruits, and the four pairs of noble persons. Also, I reject the explanation of these four "stages" by means of the five lower, and five higher fetters.
The noble eightfold path is just the elimination of sakkaya ditthi - nothing else, although everything which depends on it is also eliminated.

I do not understand MN 64. it raises many problems, could it be that five fetters were introduced first, as an explanation of the non-returner, intended for puthujjana's ? And that it was later elaborated, first by saying that the stream-winner has broken the first three fetters. Then by the addition of the five higher fetters, and finally an extra stage was squeezed in, the once-returner. Who knows ? Perhaps a more important question is why is all this false teaching needed. If we could understand that, then perhaps everything would become clear.

I still do not understand the anusaya's, but it seems clear that they are not relevant to our main problem on this thread.

Best wishes, Vincent.

[vinasp]

Hi mike,

Thank you for the info on the anusaya's. I have Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, it is very usefull, but includes a lot of later stuff, so I do not rely on it for understanding the five Nikaya's. Your post should help those who are trying to follow this difficult enquiry. If anyone is.

Best wishes, Vincent.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

Here is a sutta which I think is relevant to this thread.

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the way leading to the origination of identity and the way leading to the cessation of identity. Listen to that ...
"And what, bhikkhus , is the way leading to the origination of identity ?
Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling ... regards form as self ...feeling as self ...perception as self ...volitional formations as self ... consciousness as self ... or self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the origination of identity. When it is said, "The way leading to the origination of identity", the meaning here is this : a way of regarding things that leads to the origination of suffering.
"And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of identity ? Here, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple ... does not regard form as self ...nor feeling as self ...nor perception as self ... nor volitional formations as self ... nor consciousness as self ... nor self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the cessation of identity. When it is said, "The way leading to the cessation of identity", the meaning here is this : a way of regarding things that leads to the cessation of suffering".

The Connected Discourses of the Buddha. Bhikkhu Bodhi. page 883.
Samyutta Nikaya, Part III Khandhavagga, Division I. V. 44 (2) The Way.

Remember, identity is sakkaya , which means the five aggregates of clinging. These are called suffering in the first noble truth. Regarding form as self, and so on , is sakkaya ditthi ( see MN 44 ) twenty views in all ( abbreviated here ).
So, sakkaya ditthi leads to the origination ( arising ) of sakkaya - the five aggregates of clinging - suffering. Training oneself to not see a self in these things eliminates sakkaya-ditthi, and sakkaya - the five aggregates of clinging, and suffering.

There is a version of the four noble truths in which the first truth is just the five aggregates of clinging, nothing else. All the other truths are the same as in the normal version. This would mean that the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of the five aggregates of clinging.

Connected Discourses. Bhikkhu Bodhi. page 1847.
Part V. Mahavagga . Chapter XII The Truths. part II 13 (3) Aggregates.

Best wishes, Vincent.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

Here is an interesting passage :

"The uninstructed average man does not understand views, does not understand the origin of views, does not understand the cessation of views, does not understand the way leading to the cessation of views. For him views grow ; and he is not freed from birth, old age, death, from sorrows, griefs, ills, tribulations ; he is not freed from suffering, I say".
"But the instructed noble disciple understands views, understands their origin, their cessation and the way leading to their cessation. For him views cease ; and he is freed from birth, old age, death, from sorrows, griefs, ills, tribulations ; he is freed from suffering, I say". G. S. IV pages 39 - 40.

This is Bhikkhu Nanananda's own translation from his Concept and Reality, in early Buddhist thought, BPS Kandy Sri Lanka,1986, page 19.

The path which leads to the cessation of views? This is more proof that "deep views" of self (sakkaya-ditthi) are eliminated by the noble eightfold path. Those on the noble eightfold path develop the views of no-self to eliminate sakkaya-ditthi (views of self). The views that cease are wrong views, the views that are developed are right view. The word ditthi (view) means both beliefs and seeing things as they really are. So one could also say that those on the noble eightfold path develop the seeing of no-self to eliminate views of self.

Best wishes, Vincent.

[Brizzy]

Hi everyone,

This is about stream-winners according to the five Nikaya's, but I thought I would put it here since my understanding of the teachings could be thought to be wrong by many people. I have three questions:

1. Is there a way in which one can know for certain that one is a stream-winner?

2. If you knew that you were a stream-winner, would you admit it to others on a forum such as this one?

3. Could some modern followers of Theravada Buddhism be stream-winners without knowing it?

Kind regards, Vincent.

Hi
My understanding is that the buddha taught that there were eight noble people (ariyas). Those who were path winners and fruit winners.

1. I think that when one realizes the fruit then one knows. Someone who is a path winner will realize the fruit before death. There are many instances in the suttas where people are worried about their future birth and are reassured by the Buddha. They did not not actually know they were path winners.

2. Why?

3. I believe that any virtuous monk who has faith is likely to be a path winner.

[vinasp]

Hi Brizzy,

Thank you for your answers to my opening questions. These are good answers if one accepts the eight noble persons doctrine. This certainly predominates in DN and MN, but much less so in SN, where one finds about eleven alternative descriptions/explanations of a stream-winner. Most of these are, I believe, incompatible with the eight noble persons doctrine. Are you open minded ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

[Brizzy]

Hi Brizzy,

Thank you for your answers to my opening questions. These are good answers if one accepts the eight noble persons doctrine. This certainly predominates in DN and MN, but much less so in SN, where one finds about eleven alternative descriptions/explanations of a stream-winner. Most of these are, I believe, incompatible with the eight noble persons doctrine. Are you open minded ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

Hi
I dont know specifically about eleven, but maybe the eleven alternative descriptions/explanations of a stream-winner are variations on the basic eight, like a stream winner through faith or dhamma? Or an arahant with and without the formless attainments?

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

Here is yet more evidence that those on the noble eightfold path are still eliminating a view of self (sakkaya-ditthi), by developing the seeing of no-self. The full realisation of no-self completes the noble eightfold path by the attainment usually called becoming an arahant. The following quotations are from the Cula-Rahulovada Sutta MN 147.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Monastery. Then, as he was alone in seclusion, this line of thinking arose in the Blessed One's awareness: "The mental qualities that ripen in release have ripened in Rahula. What if I were to lead Rahula further to the ending of the mental fermentations?"

My comment : The ending of the asava's, a way of describing how one becomes an arahant.
The Buddha asks Rahula to come with him to the Grove of the Blind for the day.

As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "What do you think, Rahula - is the eye constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" "No, lord."

My comment : What is said here about the eye, is then repeated for visible objects, eye consciousness, eye-contact and whatever arises due to eye-contact such as feeling, perception, volitional-formations and consciousness.

"Seeing thus, Rahula, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted.

My comment : The same is then said about the ear, nose, tongue, sense of touch and the mind.

He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is depleted, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Rahula delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, Ven. Rahula's mind, through no clinging (not being sustained), was fully released from fermentations. And to those many thousands of devas there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

My comment : Is it fitting to regard these things as:"This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am ?" "No, Lord." This is repeated 48 times if abridgement is not used. The teaching is that nothing should be regarded in this way. Ven. Rahula fully realises the truth of no-self, becoming an arahant as a result. What was the view of self which he still had up to that point in time ? It was sakkaya-ditthi.

Best wishes, Vincent.

[Brizzy]

1. Is there a way in which one can know for certain that one is a stream-winner?

Based on my understanding from the texts of those who have attained the noble states:

Yes, it is earth-shattering enough that you would know. It includes a 'glimpse' of Nibbana and the 'opening' of the Dhamma eye, thus, one would know. One would not need to ask or seek approval from others or seek 'certification' from others.

2. If you knew that you were a stream-winner, would you admit it to others on a forum such as this one?

No, see response above.

3. Could some modern followers of Theravada Buddhism be stream-winners without knowing it?

No, see response above. They would know it.

SN 55.3 Dighavu - suggests that one can be a stream enterer and not actually know it.
SN 41.9 Nigantha Nataputta - suggests that to talk of ones "true" attainment as a layperson is acceptable.
Sorry that these two suttas are'nt online.

[Sobeh]

SN 55.3 Dighavu - suggests that one can be a stream enterer and not actually know it.
SN 41.9 Nigantha Nataputta - suggests that to talk of ones "true" attainment as a layperson is acceptable.

Sorry that these two suttas are'nt online.

SN 41.9 records the householder Citta, having attained the jhanas, introducing Kassapa to the BuddhaDhamma:
"Further, if I were to die before the Blessed One does, it would not be surprising if the Blessed One were to declare of me: 'There is no fetter bound by which Citta the householder could return to this world.'"

SN 55.3 records the householder Dighavu, bearing up under sickness that would soon claim his life, receiving gradual instruction by the Buddha. As the Buddha refers to the "four factors of stream-entry", then to the "six things that partake of true knowledge", Dighavu remarks that these are all things that he dwells in conformity with, but he then says:
"However, venerable sir, the thought occurs to me: 'After I am gone, may this householder Jotika not fall into distress.'"
"Don't be concerned about this, dear Dighavu. Come now, dear Dighavu, pay close attention to what the Blessed One is saying to you."

@Brizzy: I think you're right about stream entrants being able to communicate their attainments, but I think it's noteworthy that here we have the lay follower Citta speaking of it, and not a monastic (as it wouldn't be in keeping with the Vinaya?).

However, I think you're mistaken about a stream entrant being unaware of the attainment, however. As you see, Dighavu is simply conveying where he is to the Buddha in order to receive appropriate instruction at the end of his life; his worry is not about falling into despair himself, but instead is concern for Jotika, Dighavu's father.

[Brizzy]

SN 55.3 Dighavu - suggests that one can be a stream enterer and not actually know it.
SN 41.9 Nigantha Nataputta - suggests that to talk of ones "true" attainment as a layperson is acceptable.

Sorry that these two suttas are'nt online.

SN 41.9 records the householder Citta, having attained the jhanas, introducing Kassapa to the BuddhaDhamma:
"Further, if I were to die before the Blessed One does, it would not be surprising if the Blessed One were to declare of me: 'There is no fetter bound by which Citta the householder could return to this world.'"

SN 55.3 records the householder Dighavu, bearing up under sickness that would soon claim his life, receiving gradual instruction by the Buddha. As the Buddha refers to the "four factors of stream-entry", then to the "six things that partake of true knowledge", Dighavu remarks that these are all things that he dwells in conformity with, but he then says:
"However, venerable sir, the thought occurs to me: 'After I am gone, may this householder Jotika not fall into distress.'"
"Don't be concerned about this, dear Dighavu. Come now, dear Dighavu, pay close attention to what the Blessed One is saying to you."

@Brizzy: I think you're right about stream entrants being able to communicate their attainments, but I think it's noteworthy that here we have the lay follower Citta speaking of it, and not a monastic (as it wouldn't be in keeping with the Vinaya?).

However, I think you're mistaken about a stream entrant being unaware of the attainment, however. As you see, Dighavu is simply conveying where he is to the Buddha in order to receive appropriate instruction at the end of his life; his worry is not about falling into despair himself, but instead is concern for Jotika, Dighavu's father.

Yes you are right about Dighavu (I read it wrong)
In the Sotapattisamyutta the Buddha frequently mentions the mirror of Dhamma which basically says that if a disciple sees that they have faith in the 3 jewels & are virtuous - then they can declare their stream entry. There is no mention of the the dhamma eye - which I take to be the fruit or the seeing of Nibbana. It is declared elsewhere that the stream enterer will experience this fruit within their present life or just as death occurs. There does not have to be any fireworks to be a stream enterer.

[Sobeh]

I agree that fireworks need not apply; Sariputta attained sotapanna on hearing a pretty truncated discourse on the Dhamma. However, while not necessarily extravagant, my readings and experience suggest that sotapanna is marked by a solid conviction that is not terribly subtle.

[mikenz66]

Hi Brizzy,

SN 55.3 Dighavu - suggests that one can be a stream enterer and not actually know it.

How do you conclude that?

It's similar to MN 143 Anathapindikovada Sutta: Instructions to Anathapindika
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Both Suttas (and others) have the Buddha instructing someone and, after the death of that person (in these cases from natural causes, in some other cases from accidents, expecially with cows...) declaring to others that person's attainment. Admittedly, they do not have the stock passages that other Suttas have such as:
Now during this utterance, there arose in the venerable Kondañña the spotless, immaculate vision of the True Idea: "Whatever is subject to arising is all subject to cessation."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html
but I tend to think of the omission, and the later discussion, as a dramatic device, rather than an indication that the instructed person did not realise what he was doing.

Metta
Mike

[Sobeh]

I think you're mistaken about a stream entrant being unaware of the attainment...

Yes you are right about Dighavu (I read it wrong)

Therefore,

How do you conclude that?

...is not timely.