jhanas and nirodha?...

[Kumara]

3) There is no subject ni object of perceprion, no conscience at all, no perception at all. What is it?

Deep sleep?

I'd recommend reading this article by Aj Thanissaro: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Somewhere in it speaks of the experience,

[Akhandha]

After you come out of this state, what happens if you try to remember what it was like?

Impossible to remember anything because there is total absence of perception
no subject to perceive
indescribable, totally inconscient state
returning from it, the first thing that appears is conscience

One man told me that it's maybe asañña samapatti which can follow the 4th jhana
what do you think about it?

[srivijaya]

After you come out of this state, what happens if you try to remember what it was like?

Impossible to remember anything because there is total absence of perception
no subject to perceive
indescribable, totally inconscient state
returning from it, the first thing that appears is conscience

Whilst in this state are you able to hear loud noises, like the phone ringing, or a dog barking? If someone came into the room and shook you, would you respond, or would they call an ambulance?
Are you able to arise from this state by deciding to do so at any point, or does it just run by itself?

[Akhandha]

Whilst in this state are you able to hear loud noises, like the phone ringing, or a dog barking? If someone came into the room and shook you, would you respond, or would they call an ambulance?
Are you able to arise from this state by deciding to do so at any point, or does it just run by itself?

I can't arise from this state at my will because there is no ME to perceive what happens and to WANT anything
the state comes to his end by itself
About shooking me - I never had such situation when anybody would try to make me return from this state
About loud noises - too, never tried
usually I enter this state at night - as a result of meditation

[Akhandha]

3) There is no subject ni object of perceprion, no conscience at all, no perception at all. What is it?

Deep sleep?

I'd recommend reading this article by Aj Thanissaro: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Somewhere in it speaks of the experience,

I never sleep deeply. My awareness is very high while sleeping.

Once the breath was perfectly still, and the sense of the body started dissolving into a formless mist, this process would involve detecting the perceptions of "space," "knowing," "oneness," etc., that would appear in place of the body http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, I also know this state.
The state I ask about comes after this stage

[srivijaya]

I never sleep deeply. My awareness is very high while sleeping.

So you have more awareness in sleep than you do in this state?

[Aloka]

The link given by Culavuso for contact information at Amaravati Monastery UK was incorrect. Try this one - the monastery office is probably the best one to follow up to begin with:

http://www.amaravati.org/about/contact-us/

[Akhandha]

I never sleep deeply. My awareness is very high while sleeping.

So you have more awareness in sleep than you do in this state?

Yes
Very clear awareness while sleeping
And the state in question is total absence of awareness, I'd say it's totally unconscious
When I return from it, I've a feeling that ME (perception subject) and "world" REappears from "nothing"
not even from nothing, it's as if something ONE divides in two - subject and object - and so the act of perception begins again.

The link given by Culavuso for contact information at Amaravati Monastery UK was incorrect. Try this one - the monastery office is probably the best one to follow up to begin with:

http://www.amaravati.org/about/contact-us/

Thank you very much. Last time I really had no reaction from there. I'll try again.

[srivijaya]

[
Yes
Very clear awareness while sleeping
And the state in question is total absence of awareness, I'd say it's totally unconscious
When I return from it, I've a feeling that ME (perception subject) and "world" REappears from "nothing"
not even from nothing, it's as if something ONE divides in two - subject and object - and so the act of perception begins again.

From what you describe it very much sounds like a profound non-dual state, as you can see the re-creation of space-time in the sphere of subject/object when you move out of it. I really don't know if it is nirodha, as I had always assumed that after passing through nirodha one attains unbinding, the state of the arhat. Others may correct me on that.

[Akhandha]

it very much sounds like a profound non-dual state

Yes, it really looks like a non-dual state
What I'd like to understand is what does it correspond to in buddhist tradition.

[freedom]

Very clear awareness while sleeping
And the state in question is total absence of awareness, I'd say it's totally unconscious

Very nice to hear a profound experience. I am just curious that how do you know the state is total absence of awareness? When you said that "it's totally unconscious", does it mean that it (that state) is an unconscious object that you can observe? How can you have very clear awareness while you are in total absence of awareness? Thanks.

[Akhandha]

I am just curious that how do you know the state is total absence of awareness?

I understand it was totally unconscious at the moment when I observe the very beginning of my returning from it. The first thing I see is the moment when awareness re-appears, when perception begins again.

When you said that "it's totally unconscious", does it mean that it (that state) is an unconscious object that you can observe?

No, in this state I don't observe anything. There is no perception at all. There is no subject of perception. As I usually say about, "There is no ME".

How can you have very clear awareness while you are in total absence of awareness? Thanks.

I've got clear awareness when I simply sleep or when I meditate.
This unconscious state is the only state where there is no awareness at all. It comes just after the moment when the most possible concentration has been reached. When the mind is totally focused, calm and "united", after it this unconscious state comes, perception stops.

[freedom]

I am just curious that how do you know the state is total absence of awareness?

I understand it was totally unconscious at the moment when I observe the very beginning of my returning from it. The first thing I see is the moment when awareness re-appears, when perception begins again.

When you said that "it's totally unconscious", does it mean that it (that state) is an unconscious object that you can observe?

No, in this state I don't observe anything. There is no perception at all. There is no subject of perception. As I usually say about, "There is no ME".

How can you have very clear awareness while you are in total absence of awareness? Thanks.

I've got clear awareness when I simply sleep or when I meditate.
This unconscious state is the only state where there is no awareness at all. It comes just after the moment when the most possible concentration has been reached. When the mind is totally focused, calm and "united", after it this unconscious state comes, perception stops.

Thanks for your explanation. As I understand, you lost your awareness for a while, then later you regained your awareness and realized that missing time (Correct me if I misunderstood you). What happens after you regain your awareness and perception?

[srivijaya]

it very much sounds like a profound non-dual state

Yes, it really looks like a non-dual state
What I'd like to understand is what does it correspond to in buddhist tradition.

I'm not sure to be honest. It sounds like niroda on one hand but without the attainment of liberation. There is another possibility however, something which is known in on line debate as "jhana deep".

There are two camps on the subject of jhana - those who claim awareness during jhana (jhana light) and those who claim no awareness at all - even in first jhana (jhana deep). Perhaps it's akin to the latter, though you seem to still have awareness of some kind in the preceding stages. I would be interested to hear what others have to say on this.

When it comes to the subject of non-duality, you will generally find more receptiveness to this view amongst mahayanists than theravadans, although it's nowhere near as systematic or quantifiable.

[Akhandha]

As I understand, you lost your awareness for a while, then later you regained your awareness and realized that missing time (Correct me if I misunderstood you).

Yes. sometimes the awareness can be lost for hours. in other cases - for some minutes.

What happens after you regain your awareness and perception?

When I regain my awareness, first of all there is a moment when "one divides in two" - subject and object of perception re-appear. Then, perception begins, but it's like spots of light and dark, something is seen, but there in no ideas about what it is. No labels for things. No dividing in different things. No thoughts at all. Calmness where "I-don't-know-who sees I-don't-know-what" ))) Then, very slowly comes the understanding about what are the things that are seen. At this stage I don't still know WHO I AM. Simply an awareness, that's all. Then, after a time, I come to remember who I am and where I am. Then, thoughts re-appear. And I think: "Oh, it's great, there was no ME again" ))) A feel renewed, like reborn after returning from there.

There are two camps on the subject of jhana - those who claim awareness during jhana (jhana light) and those who claim no awareness at all - even in first jhana (jhana deep). Perhaps it's akin to the latter, though you seem to still have awareness of some kind in the preceding stages.

Yes, at the preceding stages I have very clear awareness.
As I know, in the Pali Canon there are many descriptions of the 4 jhanas. So, my experience totally corresponds to these descriptions... That's why I'd like too to understand what this unconscious state is.