Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

In Bhikkhu Bodhi's first lecture (MN002_SamyojanaAnusayaAsava.pdf) he has an extensive discussion regarding Asava (taints). Found the following which I found quite helpful in this regard: http://wisdomthroughmindfulness.blogspo ... -work.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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UrbanContemplative
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by UrbanContemplative »

Wow...thanks for posting this link!! I'm ALREADY glad I joined this forum today! This is fantastic. In the Buddha's Words was my first introduction to the Pali Canon; and I've since been reading all his other translations. I love that book, it is one of my favorites!!
cookiemonster
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by cookiemonster »

I've read through his book, and it's an awesome intro to Theravada ...

I wish it was printed on thinner "Bible-type" paper so it would be more portable as a constant companion!
Kalama
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Kalama »

Dear All,

Bhikkhu Bodhi is one of the most respected Buddhist scholars in the West nowadays. His most favorite teacher, Nyanaponika Thera ( whose teacher was Nyanatiloka Maha Thera b.t.w. ) , would certainly be pleased about his development. .

I haven't read the book yet only the free available introduction . Noting the very favorable response of members I like to share my first impression and would appreciate comments especially from those who have read the whole book .


The Venerable writes in his introdution:

quote
The Buddha asks us to stop drifting thoughtlessly through our lives and instead to pay careful attention to simple truths that are everywhere available to us, clamoring for the sustained consideration they deserve.
One of the most obvious and inescapable of these truths is also among the most difficult for us to fully acknowledge, namely, that we are bound to grow old, fall ill, and die. It is commonly assumed that the Buddha beckons us to recognize the reality of old age and death in order to motivate us to enter the path of renunciation leading to Nibbāna, complete liberation from the round of birth and death.
unquote
I recall that the Buddha stated without old age, sickness and death there would be no teaching.The 3 messengers come into mind .. Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote in a respective essay ( ' Meeting The Divine Messengers' see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_32.html :
extract , quote
„If in this process of awakening we must meet old age, sickness, and death face to face, that is because the place of safety can be reached only by honest confrontation with the stark truths about human existence. We cannot reach safety by pretending that the flames that engulf our home are nothing but bouquets of flowers: we must see them as they are, as real flames. When, however, we do look at the divine messengers squarely, without embarrassment or fear, we will find that their faces undergo an unexpected metamorphosis. Before our eyes, by subtle degrees, they change into another face — the face of the Buddha, with its serene smile of triumph over the army of Mara, over the demons of Desire and Death. The divine messengers point to what lies beyond the transient, to a dimension of reality where there is no more aging, no more sickness, and no more death. This is the goal and final destination of the Buddhist path — Nibbana, the Unaging, the Unailing, the Deathless. It is to direct us there that the divine messengers have appeared in our midst, and the good news of deliverance is their message“.
unquote


I wonder whether the Ven. repeats lateron his emphasis on the deathless dated from 1998 , as the point of freedom from the round of rebirth isn't necessarily a priority for those knowing it only by hearsay or even doubt it.


quote
However, while this may be his ultimate intention, it is not the first response he seeks to evoke in us when we turn to him for guidance. The initial response the Buddha intends to arouse in us is an ethical one. By calling our attention to our bondage to old age and death, he seeks to inspire in us a firm resolution to turn away from unwholesome ways of living and to embrace instead wholesome alternatives.

unquote


The point of ethics is supposed to explain the why of moral which I think is by the Law of Kamma plausible presented having the background in mind that without moral the Noble Path training is without substance . Hence moral is a mean for liberation not really the intial response , isn't it ?


quote:
„Rather, as we saw above, the first lesson he draws from the fact that our lives end in old age and death is an ethical one interwoven with the twin principles of kamma and rebirth. The law of kamma stipulates that our unwholesome and wholesome actions have consequences extending far beyond this present life: unwholesome actions lead to rebirth in states of misery and bring future pain and suffering; wholesome actions lead to a pleasant rebirth and bring future well-being and happiness. Since we have to grow old and die, we should be constantly aware that any present prosperity we might enjoy is merely temporary. We can enjoy it only as long as we are young and healthy; and when we die, our newly acquired kamma will gain the opportunity to ripen and bring forth its own results. We must then reap the due fruits of our deeds. With an eye to our long-term future welfare, we should scrupulously avoid evil deeds that result in suffering and diligently engage in wholesome deeds that generate happiness here and in future lives“.

unquote

Again strong emphasis on rebirth which -I.M.H.O. - would be better treated in a later chapter of the book ...at least for the Western reader.


quote
In the second section, we explore three aspects of human life that I have collected under the heading “The Tribulations of Unreflective Living.” These types of suffering differ from those connected with old age and death in an important respect. Old age and death are bound up with bodily existence and are thus unavoidable, common to both ordinary people and liberated arahants—a point made in the first text of this chapter. In contrast, the three texts included in this section all distinguish between the ordinary person, called “the uninstructed worldling” (assutavā puthujjana), and the wise follower of the Buddha, called the “instructed noble disciple” (sutavā ariyasāvaka).
The first of these distinctions, drawn in Text I,2(1), revolves around the response to painful feelings. Both the worldling and the noble disciple experience painful bodily feelings, but they respond to these feelings differently. The worldling reacts to them with aversion and therefore, on top of the painful bodily feeling, also experiences a painful mental feeling: sorrow, resentment, or distress. The noble disciple, when afflicted with bodily pain, endures such feeling patiently, without sorrow, resentment, or distress. It is commonly assumed that physical and mental pain are inseparably linked, but the Buddha makes a clear demarcation between the two. He holds that while bodily existence is inevitably bound up with physical pain, such pain need not trigger the emotional reactions of misery, fear, resentment, and distress with which we habitually respond to it. Through mental training we can develop the mindfulness and clear comprehension necessary to endure physical pain courageously, with patience and equanimity. Through insight we can develop sufficient wisdom to overcome our dread of painful feelings and our need to seek relief in distracting binges of sensual selfindulgence.
unquote

A reader may question the credibility of the dogma , as the third Noble Truths promise the cessation of what has been specified within the first Noble Truth.
It is not stated that bodily pain is excluded and must be endured though with a different reaction by the instructed (noble) disciple . I don't think that reference to the second dart is satisfying. (Please compare with General Theravada Discussion , topic 'First and Third Noble Truth , where a lucid explanation is sought. )

quote
„Many, fearful of annihilation at death, construct belief systems that ascribe to their individual selves, their souls, the prospect of eternal life. A few yearn for a path to liberation but do not know where to find one. It was precisely to offer such a path that the Buddha has appeared in our midst.“

unquote

Am I alone to miss what has been quoted before as an extract of Bhikkhu Bodhi 's earlier essay: 'Meeting the Divine Messengers ' or is it only an issue of the introduction ...?


Kalama
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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Kalama,

Just to clarify, you are quoting from the Introduction to Chapter 1: “The Human Condition”
http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/buddhas- ... -condition.
This text is intended as an introduction to the particular suttas chosen for that chapter (freely-available versions may be found linked to here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640). Those suttas set the background of humans without knowledge of the Dhamma, suffering and wandering in samsara.

Later chapters contain suttas that introduce and develop the Dhamma in more and more detail. That's the point of this organisation of the suttas.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Kalama »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kalama,

Just to clarify, you are quoting from the Introduction to Chapter 1: “The Human Condition”
http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/buddhas- ... -condition.
This text is intended as an introduction to the particular suttas chosen for that chapter (freely-available versions may be found linked to here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14640). Those suttas set the background of humans without knowledge of the Dhamma, suffering and wandering in samsara.

Later chapters contain suttas that introduce and develop the Dhamma in more and more detail. That's the point of this organisation of the suttas.

:anjali:
Mike
Hi Mike ,

thanks for clarification. Actually I would appreciate to learn that this introduction is not the tenor of the book but find that in the spirit the Venerable expressed in his essay.

Kalama
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Mkoll
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Mkoll »

Yeah, I don't have my book with me right now but I seem to remember a general introduction to the whole book, itself.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by mikenz66 »

Kalama wrote: thanks for clarification. Actually I would appreciate to learn that this introduction is not the tenor of the book but find that in the spirit the Venerable expressed in his essay.
I'm not clear about your issues with the introduction to Chapter 1. Clearly it is not a complete exposition of the Dhamma, since that comes later in the book. But I don't see any problem with what is stated there. Perhaps you feel that it is incomplete. For example, Bhikkhu Bodhi writes:
Bodhi wrote:The first of these distinctions, drawn in Text I,2(1) SN 36.6, revolves around the response to painful feelings. Both the worldling and the noble disciple experience painful bodily feelings, but they respond to these feelings differently. The worldling reacts to them with aversion and therefore, on top of the painful bodily feeling, also experiences a painful mental feeling: sorrow, resentment, or distress. The noble disciple, when afflicted with bodily pain, endures such feeling patiently, without sorrow, resentment, or distress. It is commonly assumed that physical and mental pain are inseparably linked, but the Buddha makes a clear demarcation between the two. He holds that while bodily existence is inevitably bound up with physical pain, such pain need not trigger the emotional reactions of misery, fear, resentment, and distress with which we habitually respond to it. Through mental training we can develop the mindfulness and clear comprehension necessary to endure physical pain courageously, with patience and equanimity. Through insight we can develop sufficient wisdom to overcome our dread of painful feelings and our need to seek relief in distracting binges of sensual selfindulgence.
This comment seems to be a good summary of SN 36.6, which states:
SN 36.6 wrote:Being contacted by that same painful feeling, he harbours aversion towards it. When he harbours aversion towards painful feeling, the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling lies behind this. Being contacted by painful feeling, he seeks delight in sensual pleasure. For what reason? Because the uninstructed worldling does not know of any escape from painful feeling other than sensual pleasure. When he seeks delight in sensual pleasure, the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling lies behind this. He does not understand as it really is the origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these feelings. When he does not understand these things, the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling lies behind this..
You say:
kalama wrote:A reader may question the credibility of the dogma , as the third Noble Truths promise the cessation of what has been specified within the first Noble Truth.
It is not stated that bodily pain is excluded and must be endured though with a different reaction by the instructed (noble) disciple . I don't think that reference to the second dart is satisfying. (Please compare with General Theravada Discussion , topic 'First and Third Noble Truth , where a lucid explanation is sought. )
You are correct that simply enduring pain is not liberation. However, the Noble Truths have not yet been introduced. A discussion of these issues occurs later in the book.

Keep in mind that this book is a carefully organised exposition of the Dhamma, designed so that people unfamiliar with the details of the Buddha's teaching can follow it. Having said that, I find it a very useful reference, since the suttas in the collection do cover all of the important areas of the Dhamma.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Kalama »

Hi Mike,

you wrote:

'I'm not clear about your issues with the introduction to Chapter 1. Clearly it is not a complete exposition of the Dhamma, since that comes later in the book. But I don't see any problem with what is stated there. Perhaps you feel that it is incomplete. For example, Bhikkhu Bodhi writes:
Bodhi wrote:The first of these distinctions, drawn in Text I,2(1) SN 36.6 ....snip
This comment seems to be a good summary of SN 36.6, which states:
SN 36.6 wrote:Being contacted by that same painful feeling, he harbours aversion towards it. snip
You say:
( kalama wrote:A reader may question the credibility of the dogma , as the third Noble Truths promise the cessation of what has been specified within the first Noble Truth. It is not stated that bodily pain is excluded and must be endured though with a different reaction by the instructed (noble) disciple . I don't think that reference to the second dart is satisfying. (Please compare with General Theravada Discussion , topic 'First and Third Noble Truth , where a lucid explanation is sought. )

You are correct that simply enduring pain is not liberation. However, the Noble Truths have not yet been introduced. A discussion of these issues occurs later in the book." snip
Keep in mind that this book is a carefully organised exposition of the Dhamma, designed so that people unfamiliar with the details of the Buddha's teaching can follow it. Having said that, I find it a very useful reference, since the suttas in the collection do cover all of the important areas of the Dhamma."

unquote


I do not doubt the detailed discussion and assume particular references to the suttas stating that the approach of Jhana is the mean to cease bodily pain. (?)
But that doesn't change the Ven.'s proposition " Both the worldling and the noble disciple experience painful bodily feelings, but they respond to these feelings differently." which means only the cessation of mental pain is addressed by the 3rd Noble Truth.

So is bodily pain inevitable indeed ? Let aside the temporary ceasing due to samma samadhi approach , it seems to be commonly accepted that the first dart is excluded (for the remaining life time) . But a statement from this well respected Dhamma scholar has another weight than e.g. from Silvia Borstein. It is therefore that I refered to his introduction , not to carp what I do not doubt about the book : a very useful collection of suttas showing how they 'fit together into an intelligible whole'.

My issue as I mentioned before is the search for a lucid explanation without limiting afterwards the core statement of the 3rd N.T.
The realization of PariNibbana on the event of full awakening could be an option , especially when one considers the breakdown of the D.O. links .

But I am still pondering..


Kalama
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Kalama,
Kalama wrote: But that doesn't change the Ven.'s proposition " Both the worldling and the noble disciple experience painful bodily feelings, but they respond to these feelings differently." which means only the cessation of mental pain is addressed by the 3rd Noble Truth.
Thank you for clarifying. If I understand correctly, you disagree with the statement that the noble disciple (and/or the Buddha) still feels physical pain?

You have already been discussing that on the thread First and Third Noble Truth. I suggest you continue discussion there.

It seems to me that Bhikkhu Bodhi's statement is consistent with the interpretation of most ancient and modern commentators, and, therefore, is the appropriate statement for an introductory text on Buddhism.

In his books Bhikkhu Bodhi is very careful to explain the widely-accepted interpretations, and he is always careful to explain where his personal interpretation differs. In his talks based on this book http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html, or on the Majjhima Nikaya, etc: http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic- ... ikaya.html, he sometimes expresses his personal opinions more forcefully, and of course considers some issues in much greater detail. You might enjoy some of the discussions in those lectures.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Kalama »

Hi Mike,

you wrote:
"Thank you for clarifying. If I understand correctly, you disagree with the statement that the noble disciple (and/or the Buddha) still feels physical pain? "


where did you take this from?
Repeating :
"My issue as I mentioned before is the search for a lucid explanation without limiting afterwards the core statement of the 3rd N.T.
The realization of PariNibbana on the event of full awakening could be an option , especially when one considers the breakdown of the D.O. links "..

nothing about disagreement of the canonical sources stating that the Buddha/Arahant still feels physical pain.

Mike: "You have already been discussing that on the thread First and Third Noble Truth. I suggest you continue discussion there. "

yup......I posted under the Bhikkhu Bodhi topic , because it concerned his book.

Kalama
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by mikenz66 »

Sorry, Kalama, in that case I clearly don't understand what you find lacking in Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Kalama »

mikenz66 wrote:Sorry, Kalama, in that case I clearly don't understand what you find lacking in Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments.

:anjali:
Mike
Mike, the Venerable's proposition " Both the worldling and the noble disciple experience painful bodily feelings, but they respond to these feelings differently."
is lacking a plausible explanation why the cessation of suffering /dukkha as stated by the third Noble Truth/First Noble Truth does not cover bodily pain.
That both respond differently is not enough to elucidate what appears to be a discrepancy between the 'axioms ' of the Teaching.
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by mikenz66 »

I'm sorry, I don't see what lucid explanation would fit there. Do you have a lucid explanation?

The noble truths, nibbana, dependent origination, and so on are covered in detail in Chapter IX:
http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/buddhas- ... ght-wisdom

You seem to be objecting to the overall layout of the book. The idea is that the suttas are arranged in a progressive manner: http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default ... review.pdf
In an ongoing series of lectures I began giving at Bodhi Monastery
in New Jersey in January 2003, I devised a scheme of my own to organ-
ize the contents of the Majjhima Nikaya. This scheme unfolds the
Buddha’s message progressively, from the simple to the difficult, from
the elementary to the profound. Upon reflection, I saw that this scheme
could be applied not only to the Majjhima Nikaya, but to the four
Nikayas as a whole. The present book organizes suttas selected from
all four Nikayas within this thematic and progressive framework.
Although my particular use of this
scheme may be original, it is not sheer innovation but is based upon a
threefold distinction that the Pali commentaries make among the types
of benefits to which the practice of the Dhamma leads: (1) welfare and
happiness visible in this present life; (2) welfare and happiness per-
taining to future lives; and (3) the ultimate good, Nibbana (Skt: nirvana).
The first chapter is stated to be background to this:
Three preliminary chapters are designed to lead up to those that
embody this threefold scheme. Chapter I is a survey of the human con-
dition as it is apart from the appearance of a Buddha in the world. Per-
haps this was the way human life appeared to the Bodhisatta—the
future Buddha—as he dwelled in the Tusita heaven gazing down upon
the earth, awaiting the appropriate occasion to descend and take his
final birth. We behold a world in which human beings are driven help-
lessly toward old age and death; in which they are spun around by
circumstances so that they are oppressed by bodily pain, cast down
by failure and misfortune, made anxious and fearful by change and
deterioration. It is a world in which people aspire to live in harmony,
but in which their untamed emotions repeatedly compel them, against
their better judgment, to lock horns in conflicts that escalate into vio-
lence and wholesale devastation. Finally, taking the broadest view of
all, it is a world in which sentient beings are propelled forward, by
their own ignorance and craving, from one life to the next, wandering
blindly through the cycle of rebirths called samsara.
It would, therefore, be strange if the introduction to that first chapter contained a detailed discussion of the Noble Truths.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Lectures: In the Buddha's Words

Post by Kalama »

mikenz66 wrote:I'm sorry, I don't see what lucid explanation would fit there. Do you have a lucid explanation?

snip
T

It would, therefore, be strange if the introduction to that first chapter contained a detailed discussion of the Noble Truths.

:anjali:
Mike

Maybe we should ask Bhikkhu Bodhi whether he has one ..I already made a suggestion which obviously missed your attention.
For any additional comment I prefer to follow your recommendation to continue under the topic 'First and Third Noble Truth '
Kalama
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