Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly without?

[2pennyworth]

Thank you very much Mike, I shall have a listen.


Matt

[VinceField]

I thought I'd share my experience out of curiosity of whether anyone else has experienced this or has any insight into the matter.

I have been meditating for about 2-3 hours a day for the past three weeks straight, jumping right into a dedicated practice coming from about a two-year meditation hiatus. The first two weeks I did a Samatha/Vipassana practice using one-pointed concentration, but more recently I began using Bhante's tranquility method. It seems like since I've made the switch, I've been experiencing very strong energetic sensations in my head, mainly during meditation and resting periods.

Some of the sensations feel rather pleasant, yet strong, and are especially concentrated around the brow chakra, the crown chakra, and the medulla oblongata. If I focus on the medulla the energy increases substantially until bursts of extremely pleasant yet intense energy shoot down my spine. During these bursts it feels as if the medulla is actually contracting. The activity in the chakra centers doesn't appear to be directly related to arising hinderances.

Mental tightness is extremely apparent when hinderances arise, manifesting as fairly strong energy and pressure in the areas of and around my brain. When I relax, release and let go, the energy and pressure is washed over by what feels like a wave of soothing warmth flowing from my head and down into my body along with a feeling of mental expansion, although at times the tightness quickly returns if I do not allow myself to remain in that relaxed state, usually due to thinking. I usually find that my eye muscles tighten with the tension in my head, and that totally relaxing my eyes is the only way to fully experience this wave of relaxation.

On another note, and another issue I would appreciate insight into, is that I seem to have an especially difficult time letting my body breathe without controlling it to some degree. It seems like I have to detach from my breath to such a degree that I am no longer effectively mindful of the breath in order for me to totally relinquish control of breathing. I find myself becoming short of breath and having to yawn often throughout the meditation due to this control issue. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[beeblebrox]

On another note, and another issue I would appreciate insight into, is that I seem to have an especially difficult time letting my body breathe without controlling it to some degree. It seems like I have to detach from my breath to such a degree that I am no longer effectively mindful of the breath in order for me to totally relinquish control of breathing. I find myself becoming short of breath and having to yawn often throughout the meditation due to this control issue. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Vince,

This is something I figured out in my personal practice (which could possibly deviate from the traditional interpretation): the fourth tetrad of anapanasati involves contemplation of the dhammas (phenomenons), which are impermanence, non-desire, cessation, and relinquishment. You can notice all of these happen within just the breathing itself.

For example, without the relinquishment... it'd be impossible for you to change from the in-breath to out-breath. So, if you tried to hold onto a particular breath (because of not letting go), it'd become uncomfortable. That is dukkha.

When the breath finally changes, you can also notice the cessation of desire right there (or just before).

It's possible to apply these insights to the rest of life, which has nothing to do with breathing. That's just something to think about.

[fraaJad]

I thought I'd share my experience out of curiosity of whether anyone else has experienced this or has any insight into the matter.

hi Vince,
have you listened to any of BV's talks on MN111? I highly recommend them for tracking where you are in the jhanas when using this practice. It's slightly more applicable to metta and the brahma viharas, but should still make sense if you're doing breath.

my quick answer though, is don't pay attention to the sensations. 6R everything.

peace,
jad

[VinceField]

Thank you for the responses.

I made some decent progress with my breathing issue today. I was able to allow natural breathing to take place without any conscious interference in the following way: I initially held my attention on my entire body, and with each in and out breath I focused on the intention of fully letting go. I let go for the entire in breath, and at the start of the out breath I re-intended to let go and felt myself letting go for the duration of the out breath. The main part of my awareness was focused on letting go and relaxing, and a smaller part of my awareness was on my body and breathing. It was a much more productive session- a lot less hinderances arising, much less aversion.

Does anyone else have a similar way of approaching their meditation or delegating the amount of attention they put on tranquilizing and letting go versus feeling the body and breath?

I have noticed that most of my arising hinderances are random memories of past situations in which I have some level of regret or I know that I did not act in a wholesome and truthful way, and if I follow these thoughts I find myself thinking of how I would have responded or behaved now that I am wiser. From what I have understood from Bhante's teachings, the more I allow these thoughts to exist without attachment and the more I let them go in my meditations, the less they will arise and the more they will dissolve until they no longer exist. I understand this process as a progressive release of attachment from the hinderance- from these memories and regrets (and whatever else may arise). I was wondering if anyone has any further thoughts or experience with this process.

[fraaJad]

From what I have understood from Bhante's teachings, the more I allow these thoughts to exist without attachment and the more I let them go in my meditations, the less they will arise and the more they will dissolve until they no longer exist. I understand this process as a progressive release of attachment from the hinderance- from these memories and regrets (and whatever else may arise). I was wondering if anyone has any further thoughts or experience with this process.

Hi Vince,

Definitely. It is just restlessness -- don't analyze it too much. Thoughts are just thoughts, and you can 6R those. I know it's hard to let go of thinking -- even thinking about meditation!!
But that is the beauty of the 6Rs. They apply to *everything* that comes up. Thoughts, pain, sleepiness -- just keep 6Ring until your meditation timer goes off. (And even after that. )

Just curious, have you considered switching to metta? I'm not personally condoning it, since I've never tried doing the breath. But, Bhante V does recommend metta to most of his students.


FJ

[2pennyworth]

Vince,

Just curious, have you considered switching to metta? I'm not personally condoning it, since I've never tried doing the breath. But, Bhante V does recommend metta to most of his students.

The seeds of hindrances are sown by lack of applying mindfulness in day-to-day life (easier said than done! takes persistence, I run afoul constantly!), not helped by not sticking to the precepts. (No-one's perfect, Buddha excepted!). We create negative karma, we need to lessen that as much as possible for the benefit of others by creating positive karma.

But you should be kinder to yourself; first 10 mins of metta practice you generate feelings of loving-kindness directed towards yourself before directing it to a chosen spiritual friend. Feelings of unworthiness will hinder you, just as feelings of "I am awesome!" will.

So, I'd second fraaJad's recommendation.

This is also a very powerful phrase to remember: "This is not mine, I am not this, this is not myself".

[2pennyworth]

I also recommend studying the 'Wheel of Life':

http://www.buddhanet.net/wheel2.htm

[VinceField]

From my understanding of Bhante's teachings, one method is to concentrate on breathing and relaxing, and another technique is metta/loving-kindness.

What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of each technique?

[2pennyworth]

From my understanding of Bhante's teachings, one method is to concentrate on breathing and relaxing, and another technique is metta/loving-kindness.

What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of each technique?

Put quite simply, I very much underestimated the power of loving kindness. Think about it, what better way to overcome the unwholesome than genuine loving kindness?Hate will not be overcome by hate, but by love. Eventually leading to dispassion and equanimity as we see these things clearly as impersonal through wisdom.

[VinceField]

I suppose I feel like creating the feeling of loving kindness is more of a fabrication than an experience of reality, a fabrication that perhaps can interfere with certain natural processes that would otherwise be encountered during mindfulness meditation. This is my initial thought after an intense period of vipassana meditation studies. I have yet to read or hear Bhante's teachings of metta so I will look into this and perhaps gain a better understanding.

[2pennyworth]

I suppose I feel like creating the feeling of loving kindness is more of a fabrication than an experience of reality, a fabrication that perhaps can interfere with certain natural processes that would otherwise be encountered during mindfulness meditation. This is my initial thought after an intense period of vipassana meditation studies. I have yet to read or hear Bhante's teachings of metta so I will look into this and perhaps gain a better understanding.

That's what I thought too. Just give it a go for a week, pick a spiritual friend (male, non family member, someone you know personally who is alive). And work from the heart.

[VinceField]

Will do.

Do you exclusively meditate on loving kindness or do you do breath relaxation too? I'm also curious as to when you switched to metta, what you were doing before metta, and what differences you saw in your development after the switch.

Thanks, your advice is very much appreciated!

[2pennyworth]

Will do.

Do you exclusively meditate on loving kindness or do you do breath relaxation too? I'm also curious as to when you switched to metta, what you were doing before metta, and what differences you saw in your development after the switch.

Thanks, your advice is very much appreciated!

Before I integrated loving kindness meditation into my "arsenal"! I practiced mindfulness of breath, open awareness and noting practice. It's good do do a bit of everything in my opinion, try stuff out, as they all have their different strengths and may be more suitable at different times. Sometimes a fresh angle can provide new insight, stops you from being automatic and complacent. I haven't been doing loving kindness for very long at all, only a few months! But im lucky in that i have a lot of time and secluded peace and quiet to dedicate to practice. I found it to be v effective, especially in terms of lessening the pain experienced with my reoccuring illness. Like I say, I just didn't quite appreciate the power of loving kindness. (Sounds cheesy, but there it is) I'll PM you with more detail later, gotta go now!



EDIT: but its important to really get into one practice for a period and devote time to it. IMO

[dhammarelax]

Will do.

Do you exclusively meditate on loving kindness or do you do breath relaxation too? I'm also curious as to when you switched to metta, what you were doing before metta, and what differences you saw in your development after the switch.

Thanks, your advice is very much appreciated!

Before I integrated loving kindness meditation into my "arsenal"! I practiced mindfulness of breath, open awareness and noting practice. It's good do do a bit of everything in my opinion, try stuff out, as they all have their different strengths and may be more suitable at different times. Sometimes a fresh angle can provide new insight, stops you from being automatic and complacent. I haven't been doing loving kindness for very long at all, only a few months! But im lucky in that i have a lot of time and secluded peace and quiet to dedicate to practice. I found it to be v effective, especially in terms of lessening the pain experienced with my reoccuring illness. Like I say, I just didn't quite appreciate the power of loving kindness. (Sounds cheesy, but there it is) I'll PM you with more detail later, gotta go now!



EDIT: but its important to really get into one practice for a period and devote time to it. IMO

Hi 2pennyworth

I have been practicing with Bhante Vimalaramsi Brahmaviharas method for a few months now, the progress I had has been amazing, the very first day I decided to follow exactly his instructions I went through all the jhanas and reached cessation of perception and feeling, then I saw dependent origination, and because of this I recommend you to follow this method, I doubt that doing breathing meditation you can reach it in less than one day so if speed is important to you the Brahmaviharas are the way to go, I dont think that doing more than one practice at the same time is good, meditation is a practice that leads to the "reprogramming" of our reactions to the distractions or hindrances or situations, if you do 2 practices then this reprogramming gets more complicated, you are supposed to meditate all day, which means you have to keep your mediation object in mind all day (not to get absorbed in to it), this is a habit that needs to be developed and having 2 meditation objects seems to make things harder, also dont mix methods, when I first came across Bhantes V. method I didn't followed it exactly and I decided to do "the brahmaviharas at the breath" I got some very interesting results but the hindrance attack that came afterwards was very big and I managed it poorly because I didnt apply the "hindrances are your friends" principle, it seems that the breathing meditation is more appropriate for people that think too much like engineers and such, the rest of us we do fine with the brahmaviharas. I havent read the full 86 000 suttas that are meant to compose the entire canon but from what I heard the budha recommended the breathing mediation about 9 times, while recommending the brahmaviharas a few hundred times.

On a lighter note I wonder where the smilie with the 2 machine guns could be used in a forum like this, smile, keep with your object of meditation, 6r and keep backing away.

Let me know when you see nama-rupa

With metta
dhammarelax