abhidhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

How do you all view it? Something that was taught by the buddha or something that was a latter addition?

Also do any of you feel that it contradicts the pali canon on some points?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ben
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Ben »

Hi Craig

Apparently the Abhidhamma was accepted as Buddhavacana at the first Buddhist Council.
How do I view it? Given my exposure is via Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'A comprehensive manual of the Abhidhamma', the writings of Ledi Sayadaw and a couple of chapters from Nina Van Gorkom, I view it very positively.

As for whether the Abhidhamma was composed by the Buddha or by Sariputta, I think is by and large irrelevant.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Cittasanto
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Cittasanto »

Not read it or and commentary for it, but if it works for someone then it works!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Ceisiwr
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

I have no strong reason to discount it, however i do feel that it seems to stray a bit off into metaphysical speculation
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ben
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Ben »

Hi Craig

If you take the view that the Abhidhamma was either composed by the Buddha or Sariputta or later highly realised writers then there is nothing speculative about it. The great thing about the Dhamma is that it has been tested for the last 2,500 years. If the abhidhamma was found to be a work of fiction, it would have been discounted as such by many through out its history.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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retrofuturist
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Craig,

My perspective is that the Abhidhamma Pitaka constitutes a Dhamma Theory that attempts to systemise the teachings of the Buddha (as recorded in the Sutta Pitaka) in such a way that they capture the technical essence of the teachings without reference to conventional concepts or references to self. Quite possibly it was a reaction to heretical monks and rival early schools who insisted on the existence of some kind of atta, puggala etc. In turn, the Abhidhamma would be classified as Buddha Word because it was well spoken.

Origins aside, I think it's a very valuable and complementary tool for understanding the doctrines of anatta and anicca. My concerns about it are when it extends beyond the scope of the suttas, presumably to fill certain gaps in a well-rounded and comprehensive Dhamma Theory that couldn't be satisfactorily answered by the suttas alone. Using the Simsapa Sutta as a guide, I believe that things that the Buddha didn't teach can be safely left to one side, so whilst I find the Abhidhamma interesting and insightful, it doesn't play a central role in my practice or understanding of the Dhamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

clw_uk wrote:I have no strong reason to discount it, however i do feel that it seems to stray a bit off into metaphysical speculation
In what sense is it metaphysical? It seems to me to be simply a (much) more detailed set of lists (than aggregates, elements, sense bases, etc) to classify experience. Meditation approaches such as those taught by Mahasi Sayadaw, U Pandita, etc (which includes many western"vipassana" or "insight" teachers) make quite a lot of use of the concepts.

Abhidhamma in Daily Life by Nina Van Gorkom, is a relatively practical introduction.
http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/nina ... bhi-00.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is a PDF version here:
http://www.zolag.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
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Jason
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Jason »

clw_uk,
clw_uk wrote:How do you all view it? Something that was taught by the buddha or something that was a latter addition?

Also do any of you feel that it contradicts the pali canon on some points?
Personally, I think that the Abhidhamma Pitaka is essentially a systematization of certain concepts and terms found throughout the Sutta Pitaka — with additional concepts and terms added in for logical consistency — which was possibly intended to act as a pedagogical tool, as well as an attempt to describe the ultimate nature of reality. Many scholars also agree that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was a later addition to the original teachings that gradual developed over several centuries. This is not only evident from the fact that the Abhidhamma utilizes words that are found nowhere else in the Canon, but also from the fact that each school had their own version (some even rejecting it altogether). As such, I do not think that the Abhidhamma Pitaka as we know it today was taught by the Buddha, although I do think that parts of it may have been.

Jason
Last edited by Jason on Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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meindzai
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by meindzai »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig,

My perspective is that the Abhidhamma Pitaka constitutes a Dhamma Theory that attempts to systemise the teachings of the Buddha (as recorded in the Sutta Pitaka) in such a way that they capture the technical essence of the teachings without reference to conventional concepts or references to self. Quite possibly it was a reaction to heretical monks and rival early schools who insisted on the existence of some kind of atta, puggala etc. In turn, the Abhidhamma would be classified as Buddha Word because it was well spoken.

Origins aside, I think it's a very valuable and complementary tool for understanding the doctrines of anatta and anicca. My concerns about it are when it extends beyond the scope of the suttas, presumably to fill certain gaps in a well-rounded and comprehensive Dhamma Theory that couldn't be satisfactorily answered by the suttas alone. Using the Simsapa Sutta as a guide, I believe that things that the Buddha didn't teach can be safely left to one side, so whilst I find the Abhidhamma interesting and insightful, it doesn't play a central role in my practice or understanding of the Dhamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If I had bothered to come up with a well formulated opinion about Abhidhamma, it probably would have sounded something like this. :)

Except for the fact that right now it's playing a pretty significant role in my understanding, because it seems to be cementing the tiny little gaps in my knowledge between certain areas.

-M
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Ceisiwr
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Thank you all for your replies :smile:

Is there anywhere you can view or buy it online?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Cittasanto
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Cittasanto »

clw_uk wrote:Thank you all for your replies :smile:

Is there anywhere you can view or buy it online?
the only Full version of the actual text I know of is at the Pali Text Society
but I don't know for certain
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Ceisiwr
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Thanks Manapa :smile:

Metta
Craig
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Craig,

As for materials on line, this is probably as good a starting point as any.

A Manual of Abhidhamma by Narada
http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/abhisgho/abhis00.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bhikkhu Bodhi has since refashioned this manual and published it in book form under the title "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by jcsuperstar »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig,

As for materials on line, this is probably as good a starting point as any.

A Manual of Abhidhamma by Narada
http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/abhisgho/abhis00.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bhikkhu Bodhi has since refashioned this manual and published it in book form under the title "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma".

Metta,
Retro. :)
you know i just realized that 15 mins ago when i was holding both books in my hand....
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Ceisiwr
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Re: abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hi Retrofuturist,

Thanks for the link, i do have a copy of the manual by bhikkhu bodi, i was looking to get a copy of just the text.
Thanks for your advice though :smile:

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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