Recitation of the Patimokkha

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Biija
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:18 pm

Recitation of the Patimokkha

Post by Biija »

Hi, buddies.

Where to find the Patimokkha in Pali? I want to read the complete text that the Thai monks recite in Uposatha Day and, if possible, some audio of a Thai monk reciting it in an average (normal) speed. I have an audio that I recorded when I stayed in a Thai monastery, but the monk recited too fast and it's not so clear!
Last edited by Biija on Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Recitation of the Patimokkha

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6636
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Where to find the Patimokkha in Pali?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi,
Here gives a rundown of each of the rules with the pali (romanized) of each rule.
I understand that there are two different chants (no difference in the individual rules though).
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Biija
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:18 pm

Re: Where to find the Patimokkha in Pali?

Post by Biija »

Very kind of each of you. Thanks! :thumbsup:

Although the video shows a Sri Lankan monk reciting the Patimokkha, I see that it is very similar to the way Thai monks recite it except for the pronunciation of some syllables. I'll try to recite it the way Thai monks do. I've had no difficulty memorizing Pali chants, but the Patimokkha is more lengthy than anything else. I've decided to memorize it because I intend to become a monk later on, but I'd like to start to develop some abilities right away.

Questions:

1) Would you give any piece of advice on that?
2) How should one handle this process?

These questions are intended for Bhikkhus. However, if you (lay) have some clue, it's more than welcome.
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Recitation of the Patimokkha

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Biija wrote:Although the video shows a Sri Lankan monk reciting the Patimokkha, I see that it is very similar to the way Thai monks recite it except for the pronunciation of some syllables.
Thai, Burmese, and Sri Lankan monks all pronounce Pāli slightly differently.

If you are planning to ordain in the Thai tradition, then this version may be helpful to learn the Thai style of pronunciation.

I found that the only way to learn chanting is to learn the meaning as I go, so that I have a good idea of what I am saying, and what should come next.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3718
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Where to find the Patimokkha in Pali?

Post by Mr Man »

Biija wrote:Very kind of each of you. Thanks! :thumbsup:

Although the video shows a Sri Lankan monk reciting the Patimokkha, I see that it is very similar to the way Thai monks recite it except for the pronunciation of some syllables. I'll try to recite it the way Thai monks do. I've had no difficulty memorizing Pali chants, but the Patimokkha is more lengthy than anything else. I've decided to memorize it because I intend to become a monk later on, but I'd like to start to develop some abilities right away.

Questions:

1) Would you give any piece of advice on that?
2) How should one handle this process?

These questions are intended for Bhikkhus. However, if you (lay) have some clue, it's more than welcome.
I learnt to chant the Patimokha about 30 years ago now and it has long since gone from my memory. I would practice a couple of hours each day and it took me about Six weeks to get it down (I was already familiar with memorizing chanting though).
I think it is useful to listen often to it being chanted (so what you a memorizing is familiar before you memorize it) and the key is getting a rhythm going. When you are reciting it is as if the last word is the prompt for the next word, as if you are remembering short parts which are in relationship to other short parts rather than a whole long text. I would concentrate a learning a section of rules at a time and extending. Ideally you would have someone to help at times with prompting (saying a word or two when you get stuck).

There are a few more versions here: http://mirror1.birken.ca/dhamma_talks/indiv/Chant/01/
User avatar
Biija
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:18 pm

Re: Where to find the Patimokkha in Pali?

Post by Biija »

Thanks, Bhante Pesala. Thanks Mr. Man. Now I've already got what I needed. Before opening this thread, I searched the forum and didn't find any information about what I was looking for, but I know that it must already exist here. Anyway, we could dedicate this thread to "Recitation of the Patimokkha": techniques, videos, audios, sources of Pali scriptures, etc. So, I've already changed the thread's title. :anjali:
User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Recitation of the Patimokkha

Post by gavesako »

Note that traditionally, you would not be able to learn the Patimokkha as a layman at all, because it was a knowledge passed on from bhikkhu to bhikkhu and there is even a Patimokkha rule prohibiting the "chanting together of Dhamma (Vinaya)" with unordained people.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Recitation of the Patimokkha

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

gavesako wrote:Note that traditionally, you would not be able to learn the Patimokkha as a layman at all, because it was a knowledge passed on from bhikkhu to bhikkhu and there is even a Patimokkha rule prohibiting the "chanting together of Dhamma (Vinaya)" with unordained people.
There is no offence for a lay person to memorise the Suttanta or Vinaya by themselves.

Lay people should not be discouraged from memorising the texts. Studying the Pātimokkha rule is recommended for anyone seriously contemplating ordination in the near future. If they are to be ordained as novices for a period first, perhaps it is less urgent, but if they are planning to take the higher ordination directly, it is best to be aware of the rules before committing oneself to follow them. Memorising them is not essential, but it's a powerful aid to learning them thoroughly.

There's also a rule (Pāc 73) that a bhikkhu cannot claim ignorance of the rule if he has sat through the Pātimokkha recitation two or three times.
73. Should any bhikkhu, when the Pātimokkha is being recited every half-month, say, “Just now have I heard that this case, too, is handed down in the Pātimokkha, is included in the Pātimokkha, and comes up for recitation every half‑month;” and if other bhikkhus should know, “That bhikkhu has already sat through two or three recitations of the Pātimokkha, if not more,” the bhikkhu is not exempted for being ignorant. Whatever the offence he has committed, he is to be dealt with in accordance with the rule; and in addition, his deception¹ is to be exposed: “It is no gain for you, friend, it is ill‑done, that when the Pātimokkha is being recited, you do not pay proper attention and take it to heart.” Here the deception is to be confessed.
¹ I don't much like Ven. Thanissaro's translation of mohanake.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Recitation of the Patimokkha

Post by gavesako »

Of course the technique of learning a Pali text has changed since the Buddha's time considerably. Now we use books and recorded voice whereas in those days, all knowledge was passed on orally from teacher to student and also created the bond and personal relationship between them. Thus one would always be acquiring the knowledge in a certain context of living monastic tradition, whereas now anyone can pick it up as an abstract thing divorced from its context. (This is what scholars often do.)
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
BujalskiD.
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:06 pm

Re: Recitation of the Patimokkha

Post by BujalskiD. »

Dear DhammaFriend,
i suppose to relly unterstand the Patimokkha in theory you must read that:http://www.bps.lk/olib/mi/pali_studies/ ... mokkha.pdf
History,rules and pali translations word by word
Highly suggest
with great Metta :anjali:
Post Reply