Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by Goofaholix »

thepea wrote:Is the breath not a suitable object?
Yes the breath is a suitable object, though it changes it's one object. You'll have to ask someone experienced in jhana to explain how attention becomes one pointed on the breath but my guess it's because it rhythmic and therefore predictable particularly because the breath becomes subtler and subtler as samadhi becomes stronger.

Moving attention through the body would be a good example of samadhi that is not one pointed, mental noting of whatever comes within ones field of awareness is another example.
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thepea
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by thepea »

Goofaholix wrote: because the breath becomes subtler and subtler as samadhi becomes stronger.
So is true for experience.
Goofaholix wrote: Moving attention through the body would be a good example of samadhi that is not one pointed,
But as one moves to subtler and subtler experience there is a unification. Like the noting would be let go of, the moving of awareness through the body is also let go of. Jhanic states can arise.

Its just that mental formations seem to be liberated from the lower destinations before these states begin to arise with any stability. One is likely to stumble into these states, but teachers do not give them any importance, otherwise students may begin to crave these states and not observe this moment as it presents itself.

I have never heard of anyone discouraging jhanas, just not giving them any importance.
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Sati1
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by Sati1 »

The jhanas can be entered through various subjects of contemplation, including the breath, body sweeping and loving-kindness. Some subjects, like the breath, can take one to the highest jhanas, while those that carry some form of thinking, like loving-kindness, are only suitable for the lower jhanas, which are nonetheless still very useful for the insight practice that follows. What matters is for there to be a certain steadiness in one's attention, a regularity, an opportunity to slow the mind down and rest it. Day-to-day insight practice usually doesn't have that.

It is true that these states can easily be craved due to the intensity of the pleasure. But my personal opinion is that this should not be reason enough to deliberately avoid them.

Wth metta,
Sati1

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by Spiny Norman »

Goofaholix wrote:
thepea wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: inclining the mind towards changing objects and the development of insight doesn't usually do it.
Why?
Jhana usually requires a one-pointedness of mind, aiming and sustaining. If you let the mind contemplate changing phenomena it might be calm and spacious but not one-pointed.
Yes, it seems to involve staying with the primary object, eg the breath.
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thepea
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by thepea »

Sati1 wrote: an opportunity to slow the mind down and rest it.
Would it not be more akin to speeding up, rapid arising and passing, approaching the speed of light and beyond(4th jhana and higher) ?
Sati1 wrote: It is true that these states can easily be craved due to the intensity of the pleasure. But my personal opinion is that this should not be reason enough to deliberately avoid them.
Why avoid them, just don't crave for them. Let things unbind naturally.
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Sati1
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by Sati1 »

thepea wrote:
Sati1 wrote: an opportunity to slow the mind down and rest it.
Would it not be more akin to speeding up, rapid arising and passing, approaching the speed of light and beyond(4th jhana and higher) ?
Sati1 wrote: It is true that these states can easily be craved due to the intensity of the pleasure. But my personal opinion is that this should not be reason enough to deliberately avoid them.
Why avoid them, just don't crave for them. Let things unbind naturally.
Hi thepea,

what do you mean by "approaching the speed of light"? Never heard of that before.

Yes, indeed no reason to avoid & crave. But our minds still naturally wrap around pleasures and try to grasp them. Ridding the mind of this tendency is of course the ultimate goal of the practice (i.e. rid the mind of its cravings).

Andy
Sati1

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
atipattoh
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by atipattoh »

:oops:
Last edited by atipattoh on Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Mkoll
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by Mkoll »

atipattoh wrote:Am I right or wrong? :shrug:
Is that a rhetorical question? Or are you actually unsure of everything you just wrote?
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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
thepea
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by thepea »

Sati1 wrote:
what do you mean by "approaching the speed of light"? Never heard of that before.
Time(thinking) is said to slow down as approaching light speed. To travel faster than light is to go back in time, know past lives, the origin.
atipattoh
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by atipattoh »

Mkoll wrote:
atipattoh wrote:Am I right or wrong? :shrug:
Is that a rhetorical question? Or are you actually unsure of everything you just wrote?
Post delete!
It does not seems suitable to be in this thread

Peace!
Last edited by atipattoh on Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
philosopher
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by philosopher »

I've been listening to many of Ayya Khema's talks recently and she (along with many other teachers; Thanissaro Bikkhu, for instance, comes to mind) emphasizes that after each session one should do a recapitulation, especially if the absorptions were reached - i.e. consider what you ate, whether you rested, technique, etc.

I would assume that fluctuations as you described are mostly due to life events and/or activities that cause rising and falling levels of anxiety, excitement, etc. -- any emotion that leads to ruminative thought patterns.
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Mkoll
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by Mkoll »

atipattoh wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
atipattoh wrote:Am I right or wrong? :shrug:
Is that a rhetorical question? Or are you actually unsure of everything you just wrote?
You might wanna spend some time to figure this out and verify this?
Huh? Is that supposed to be an answer to my question?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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MrMonkey
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by MrMonkey »

atipattoh wrote: Apply Thought (Vitakka) is only instantaneous (an act of focus) and it is let go off (unless there is a need to apply thought again). Sustain Thought (Vicara) continues as long as possible and this parts has no act of focus, it is a monitoring process with little effort by maintaining mindful. The more energy that you put in, the mind would be more easily wandering away.
I'm a beginner, but I read some books and I never found a description like this about vitakka and vicara. It seems to me very interesting. Often I feel my self like the monk on the WC.... :shock: .... too much effort that rise tensions...

But I've the impression that I didn't fully understand this statement:
atipattoh wrote: Sustain Thought (Vicara) ..., it is a monitoring process with little effort by maintaining mindful
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by atipattoh »

MrMonkey wrote:
atipattoh wrote: Sustain Thought (Vicara) ..., it is a monitoring process with little effort by maintaining mindful
We both are beginners. Because the real advance meditator does not really write much. What I described is nothing new, just consolidation of what many teachers has taught me. The booklet may seems simple but it is quite sufficient to guide one into samadhi.
Here is what is described in Buddha Abhidhamma – Ultimate Science by Dr. Mon (Pg. 83). I think it is in Visuddhimagga as well, not sure; haven’t go thru VM.
“Vitakka is the forerunner of vicàra. The two should be distinguished thus:
like the flapping of a bird about to fly is vitakka, like its planning movements in the sky is vicàra;
like the beating of a drum or bell is vitakka, like its reverberation is vicàra”
Here’s the link: http://www.abhidhamma.com/txt_Mehm_Tin_ ... dhamma.pdf
(Tried buddhanet; but got malware alert!)

I have not come accross a good simile on maintaining mindful so I will just give it a try. The concept (in Chinese we call 心法, not sure if concept is the correct word) that I would use on this part is like:
The dragonfly dipping its tail barely touches the surface of the water; laying its eggs and fly off at the very moment there is contact.
The idea is you don’t want to investigate what the mind is doing all the times; and
you don’t want to give instruction to the mind of what to do, all the times.

When the dirt in the muddy water has settled down, this is the time when 4 powers being balance and slowly raised up from the bottom with the continuing support of the 5th. power of mindfulness. All 5 powers are strengthened at the same time. And if one can maintain mindful of knowing your meditation object when you stand, walk, eat with consciousness wide and pleasant; great things may happen when he sits or even the moment that he close his eyes laying down planning for a rest.
Happy sitting!

If your practice is towards nimitta absorption, look at the reflection of the moon in the lake ( 明月照大江), not in the well ( 井中月 ).
:anjali:
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atipattoh
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi

Post by atipattoh »

:oops:
Last edited by atipattoh on Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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