Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Mkoll
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by Mkoll »

alan wrote:In the suttas we often encounter a group talking nonsense, blathering on. The Buddha always admonishes them.
Is he being a snob?
I would say no, he's justly advising against foolish noise. What is noise? That which does not produce beneficial results or add to the quality of your mind.
What adds to the quality of your mind? That which increases awareness, that which cleanses, that which inspires.
False analogy. We're not talking about the Buddha's teaching right now. We're talking about music.

You're saying that since you don't like to listen to goth or metal music, therefore goth and metal music aren't music.
It's like saying since I don't like to eat oatmeal or raisins, therefore oatmeal and raisins aren't foods.

And for the record, oatmeal and raisins are great; I'm just using them as examples.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
alan
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by alan »

Thought it was a decent analogy, but let's put that aside for now. Question is: what do you want to feed your mind?
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Mkoll
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by Mkoll »

Clearly, hoping you would see that goth and metal are valid forms of music was a bad idea. I'll exit this debate with a final word from Wikipedia.
Wikipedia: Heavy Metal Music wrote:Heavy metal (or simply metal) is a genre of rock music[1] that developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s, largely in the United Kingdom and the United States.
Wikipedia: Gothic Rock wrote:Gothic rock (also referred to as goth rock or simply goth) is a musical subgenre of post-punk and alternative rock that formed during the late 1970s.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
alan
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by alan »

And worthless noise is a subcategory of other forms of noise, all of which do not contribute to peace of mind, which is why I avoid them.
alan
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by alan »

What is beautiful music? Charlie Parker riffing on a melody, taking it to the sublime. Or maybe, if you're not a Jazz cat, a singer-song-writer expressing emotion. Maybe it's a pop band coming up with new melodies.
No matter what your preference, there is no doubt that some sounds elevate, and others do not. Music, like all other art forms, is at it's best when it aims high.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by Kim OHara »

Mkoll wrote:
alan wrote:In the suttas we often encounter a group talking nonsense, blathering on. The Buddha always admonishes them.
Is he being a snob?
I would say no, he's justly advising against foolish noise. What is noise? That which does not produce beneficial results or add to the quality of your mind.
What adds to the quality of your mind? That which increases awareness, that which cleanses, that which inspires.
False analogy. We're not talking about the Buddha's teaching right now. We're talking about music.

You're saying that since you don't like to listen to goth or metal music, therefore goth and metal music aren't music.
It's like saying since I don't like to eat oatmeal or raisins, therefore oatmeal and raisins aren't foods.

And for the record, oatmeal and raisins are great; I'm just using them as examples.
You're right, Mkoll, at least in grammatical terms, but Alan does have a good point: we advised not to waste our time on foolish occupations or idle speech and IMO that applies to rubbishy music as well.
However, what music is thought to be rubbishy and what isn't varies wildly from one person to another.
I would argue that music which is deliberately ugly or deliberately stirs up ugly emotions (hate, violence, etc) is un-Buddhist and music which encourages calm, blissful thoughts or positive action is dhammically ideal. There's a lot of middle ground between those extremes, however, and whether (e.g.) Schubert is better than Coltrane seems to be merely a matter of taste and listening experience. I do agree with Alan's last post, though: Music is at its best when it aims high.

:juggling:
Kim
alan
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by alan »

Coltrane. Everyone should listen to Coltrane.
No, just kidding. Not everyone has the neurons aligned properly in their brain to dig his mojo.

You know, I often walk on the beach. During that time I encounter people listening to the radio, which strikes me as odd, since the loveliest sounds of all human time are available--waves. Waves coming in and out are so perfectly beautiful, sometimes I have to just sit there and let them wash in, and abide in the moment.
Until it's time to leave, and that moment is lost. The pointless noise begins again. Maybe that's why I don't like people in general. They interfere with my waves.
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mikenz66
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by mikenz66 »

alan wrote:Coltrane. Everyone should listen to Coltrane.
And Davis...

:anjali:
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alan
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by alan »

Yes, him too. There is a world of brilliant Jazz out there to be discovered, and you'll never get tired of listening to it.
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by thepea »

alan wrote: Maybe that's why I don't like people in general. They interfere with my waves.
Perhaps you don't like people because you don't like yourself?
culaavuso
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by culaavuso »

Kim OHara wrote:Music is at its best when it aims high.
4'33"
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mikenz66
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by mikenz66 »

culaavuso wrote:
Kim OHara wrote:Music is at its best when it aims high.
4'33"
I saw that live once (in the middle of a concert of Cage prepared piano pieces) and it was actually surprisingly effective and engaging. I'm not joking, actually sitting attentively for 4'33" listening to nothing is an interesting experience...

:anjali:
Mike
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Mkoll
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by Mkoll »

Kim OHara wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
alan wrote:In the suttas we often encounter a group talking nonsense, blathering on. The Buddha always admonishes them.
Is he being a snob?
I would say no, he's justly advising against foolish noise. What is noise? That which does not produce beneficial results or add to the quality of your mind.
What adds to the quality of your mind? That which increases awareness, that which cleanses, that which inspires.
False analogy. We're not talking about the Buddha's teaching right now. We're talking about music.

You're saying that since you don't like to listen to goth or metal music, therefore goth and metal music aren't music.
It's like saying since I don't like to eat oatmeal or raisins, therefore oatmeal and raisins aren't foods.

And for the record, oatmeal and raisins are great; I'm just using them as examples.
You're right, Mkoll, at least in grammatical terms, but Alan does have a good point: we advised not to waste our time on foolish occupations or idle speech and IMO that applies to rubbishy music as well.
However, what music is thought to be rubbishy and what isn't varies wildly from one person to another.
I would argue that music which is deliberately ugly or deliberately stirs up ugly emotions (hate, violence, etc) is un-Buddhist and music which encourages calm, blissful thoughts or positive action is dhammically ideal. There's a lot of middle ground between those extremes, however, and whether (e.g.) Schubert is better than Coltrane seems to be merely a matter of taste and listening experience. I do agree with Alan's last post, though: Music is at its best when it aims high.

:juggling:
Kim
What the Buddha advises for serious practitioners is to refrain from music altogether. There is no Dhammically ideal music.
Uposatha Sutta, AN 8.41 wrote:7. "Bhikkhus. Ariyan disciples in this Religion reflect thus:

"'All arahants, for as long as life lasts, have given up singing and dancing, the playing of musical instruments and the watching of entertainments, which are stumbling blocks to that which is wholesome. Nor do they bedeck themselves with ornaments, flowers or perfume.'

"All of you have given up singing and dancing, the playing of musical instruments and the watching of entertainments, which are stumbling blocks to that which is wholesome. You do not bedeck yourselves with ornaments, flowers or perfume. For all of this day and night, in this manner, you will be known as having followed the arahants, and the Uposatha will have been observed by you. This is the seventh factor of the Uposatha.
[my emphasis added]

You could argue that listening to certain types of music are relatively more "wholesome" than listening to other types. I would even agree that listening to jazz or classical is more "wholesome" than listening to death metal. But listening to either form of music is not "Dhammically wholesome", which is what that sutta is talking about.

One should be very clear about what is strictly "Dhammically wholesome" and what is not.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

alan wrote: Maybe that's why I don't like people in general.
I would never have guessed.... :roll:
They interfere with my waves.
What you permit others to do, and how they affect you, is your problem, not theirs.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Kim OHara
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Post by Kim OHara »

mikenz66 wrote:
culaavuso wrote:
Kim OHara wrote:Music is at its best when it aims high.
4'33"
I saw that live once (in the middle of a concert of Cage prepared piano pieces) and it was actually surprisingly effective and engaging. I'm not joking, actually sitting attentively for 4'33" listening to nothing is an interesting experience...

:anjali:
Mike
It is, at least partly, an exercise in mindfulness.
Did you really hear nothing, or did you hear all sorts of things that you rarely pay attention to?

It's also a comment on how regarding something as 'music' changes the way we perceive it.

You can play it yourself, of course, any time.

:thinking:
Kim
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