Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:01 pm

Greetings,
dharmapravicaya wrote:P.S.: If the main piece of information in the initial post were to be confirmed to be false, wouldn't it be desirable to create a new post with a corrective title? I believe it would be fair and polite towards the Dhammakaya.
Yes, I agree... if someone has any information which confirms it to be false, please advise a member of Dhamma Wheel staff.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Post by Nibbida » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:48 pm

gavesako wrote:Apparently they hired the foreign scholars and gave them salary of 15 thousand baht per month to replace e.g. "anicca dukkha anatta" with "anicca dukkha atta".
Couldn't they just do a "find and replace" in MS Word? It would have saved them a lot of bahts.

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Post by gavesako » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:37 am

I don't think they worry about the funding that much...
:roll:


Typical promotional letter sent out by the organization:

Dhammakaya image
Dear …., Firstly, I rejoice in your merit of good thinking. Building the Personal Dhammakaya Image will bring a lot of merit to you because it is the copying of the Lord Buddha’s body, Dhammakaya, and installing it at Maha Dhammakaya Cetiya. The inst...alled images will make the worshipers pure and bright. You can build the Personal Dhammakaya Image by donating 15,000 Baht per image and engrave your name or your beloved one’s name at the base of the image. The engraved name is 20 characters or less. For the name engraving, we allow only the person’s name and surname. We do not allow engraving the surname as the whole family, the company’s name or the pet’s name. What do you receive for this donation? 1. The Name Engraving at the base of the Personal Dhammakaya Image 2. The Rejoice Card for you to remind of this donation 3. The Master Nun Chand Khonnokyoong Coin You can donate to make this merit until April 22nd, 2011. Another big merit associating with the activities on April 22nd, 2011 is the Great Indefinite Alms Offering to the Monks from over 30,000 temples nationwide. You can donate with us, http://www.dmc.tv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, via transferring your money to: The Saving Account of Siam Commercial Bank, Klongluang Branch Account Name: Phramaha Thossaporn Boonyarangkul Account No.: 314-456911-8 After finish transferring, please inform us by email to tung@dmc.tv or call 08-9685-0072 Special!! For you who make merit with http://www.dmc.tv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Department If you donate for 2 images, you will receive an additional 1-inch Clear Dhammakaya Image. If you donate for 3 images, you will receive an additional 5-inch Clear Dhammakaya Image. If you donate for 5 images, you will receive an additional 9-inch Clear Dhammakaya Image. If you donate for 10 images, you will receive an additional 12-inch Golden Luang Phu Image. If you are not available to receive your small Buddha Image and other gifts, we will mail them to you. For more information, please call 08-9685-0072 or meet us at Post E6 in the International Dhammakaya Meditation Hall, Dhammakaya Temple. Overseas Money Transfer for Donation SWIFT CODE : SICOTHBK BANK NAME : SIAM COMMERCIAL BANK BRANCH NAME : KLONGLUANG BANK ADDRESS : 93 MOO 8 KLONGLUANG PATHUMTHANI 12120 THAILAND ACC NAME : Phramaha Thossaporn Boonyarangkul ACC Type : Saving Rejoice in your merit,See more

Bhikkhu Gavesako
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:25 am

Following up on this post on DharmaWheel: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... ad#p139929" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I came across this blog entry: http://zennist.typepad.com/zenfiles/200 ... iland.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pro self (atta) in Thailand
September 06, 2009

For the last couple of days I’ve been looking over the discussion background of Wikipedia’s treatment of Anatta (non-self) and Atman (Buddhism) (it’s the most interesting part of Wikipedia in my book). All in all, there is much that is missing which might shed a better neutral light on anatta and atman in Buddhism coming closer to what Pande said in 1957.
  • “The doctrine [of an-atman] denies that there is in the physical or mental realms anything which may properly be called one’s “self” since everywhere within them impermanence and dependence rule. This of itself does not mean the denial of all “self” whatever, but only of the phenomenality of the “Self”. What is usually denied is that any of the khandhas may be the Attâ [self], not the existence of the Attâ as such. Even in the more positive later literature, the Attâ that is denied is often conceived purely phenomenally” (Pande, Origins of Buddhism, 499).
This about sums up anatta and atman in a neutral way if one has bothered to read the Pali Nikayas and not just read what is on the Internet—or purposely refuse to understand.

Now, what I want to say is the problem of anatta and atman is not unique to Western shores. At least not in Thailand which is a very ancient Buddhist country.

Based on Paul Williams book, Mahayana Buddhism (2008), in 1939 the Samgharaja of Thailand, the head of the national Samgha, gave up the accepted Theravada Buddhist notion of Non-Self (anatta) and switched to the doctrine of the Self (atman), insisting nirvana (P., nibbana) is the true Self. Citing an unpublished dissertation by P. Cholvijarn, Nibbana as Self or No Self (2007), Williams quotes the following from Cholvijarn who summarizes Samgharaja's argument:
  • "[T]he uniqueness of the Buddhist doctrine of anattâ [not-Self] is realised once attâ [the Self] has been attained. The Buddha discovered that nibbana is attâ and only by doing so, was able to say that the five aggregates are anattâ. The anattâ doctrine of the Buddha is the doctrine of only Buddhism because the Buddha realised attâ that is different from conditioned dhammas. Nibbana is the purity of an object, it is void of defilements [cf. the tathagatagarbha] and once it is reached there is no more clinging. As purity, it must [be] situate[d] within an object. That object is self. Anattâ is a tool that the Buddha uses for [his] disciples to reject the conditioned dhamma and to accept nibbana. If nibbana is anattâ, then, nibbana is to be rejected and there would be no purpose in practising the Noble Eightfold Path."
Perhaps even more important in moving Thai Buddhism out of the doldrums of Non-Self doctrine was the legendary Buddhist monk Phra Mongkolthepmuni (1884–1959). In 1916 he founded the Dhammakaya Foundation which has grown immensely since then with presently millions of members.

It would not be wrong to say Phra Mongkolthepmuni was responsible for the recrudescence of Buddhism in Thailand giving it new meaning and vitality. Unique in Phra Mongkolthepmuni's understanding of Buddhism was his realization that nirvana is the true Self which is also the Dhammakaya (i.e., the Buddha’s true body).

The Dharmakaya is, according to Phra Monkolthepmuni, niccam (permanent), sukham (blissful), and atta (self). But perhaps even more important and central, the Dhammakaya is a reality anyone, through study and meditation, can apperceive.

Trying to encapsulate Phra Mongkolthepmuni’s meditation, which by no measure is exhaustive on my part, it must be first accepted that meditation for Phra Mongkolthepmuni was the necessary means of awakening (sambodhi)—and only by awakening do we learn and verify what the Buddha actually taught. Explaining his own awakening in 1916, to see the Buddha’s real and true body, the Dhammakaya, he was able to reduce all thinking (mental interference) to a single point. In this way he transcended it (i.e., the thinking). As a result, what comes to exist is the mind, itself. If thinking is not transcended by this means, the mind won’t be seen, according to Phra Mongkolthepmuni. It should be added, that before his awakening, Phra Mongkolthepmuni was a highly skilled meditator, having studied many different forms of meditation under many different teachers.

For Phra Mongkolthepmuni, his particular practice of meditation enabled him to see and to actualize the Buddha’s ultimate body which, like Buddha-nature, is something real within us but owing to our ignorance, we are unable to comprehend it.

But his pro-Self stance, which was verified by his awakening, nevertheless drew criticism from the old guard who believed the Buddha fundamentally taught the doctrine of Non-Self (anattavada). The Dhammakaya Foundation addressing such criticism holds that accomplished practitioners of meditation understand that nirvana is the same as the true Self and it is only scholars who have never had profound realizations who argue there is no Self.

If this sounds like a strange counter argument, consider if one during a period of deep meditation apperceives a state of being that is unaffected by the psychophysical body (i.e., the Five Aggregates). What are we to call this? Calling it void would be wrong because there is something apperceived—a sheer fullness. We could say, however, it is the Self since it is itself and not other. And were someone to insist that we might be deluded, we could justifiably laugh at them. (Speaking only for myself there are states one can reach during meditation that do in fact verify what the Buddha taught and make his teaching—I hate to say this—easy to grasp.)

The enormous growth of the Dhammakaya Foundation is testimony to the longing people have to find what is permanent, blissful, and substantial (atman). It is quite evident that the majority of Buddhists in Thailand are not satisfied with just the Buddha’s negative diagnosis of all conditioned things that they are impermanent, painful, and insubstantial. They also want the cure he promised and taught which is nirvana; which is the true Self.
:anjali:
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Post by Nyana » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:41 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Trying to encapsulate Phra Mongkolthepmuni’s meditation, which by no measure is exhaustive on my part, it must be first accepted that meditation for Phra Mongkolthepmuni was the necessary means of awakening (sambodhi)—and only by awakening do we learn and verify what the Buddha actually taught. Explaining his own awakening in 1916, to see the Buddha’s real and true body, the Dhammakaya, he was able to reduce all thinking (mental interference) to a single point. In this way he transcended it (i.e., the thinking). As a result, what comes to exist is the mind, itself. If thinking is not transcended by this means, the mind won’t be seen, according to Phra Mongkolthepmuni. It should be added, that before his awakening, Phra Mongkolthepmuni was a highly skilled meditator, having studied many different forms of meditation under many different teachers....

If this sounds like a strange counter argument, consider if one during a period of deep meditation apperceives a state of being that is unaffected by the psychophysical body (i.e., the Five Aggregates). What are we to call this? Calling it void would be wrong because there is something apperceived—a sheer fullness. We could say, however, it is the Self since it is itself and not other. And were someone to insist that we might be deluded, we could justifiably laugh at them. (Speaking only for myself there are states one can reach during meditation that do in fact verify what the Buddha taught and make his teaching—I hate to say this—easy to grasp.)
This is nothing new. Non-Buddhist yogis have been making this same mistaken identification for centuries. It's rooted in a type of wrong view described in DN 2:
  • That which is called "the eye," "the ear," "the nose," "the tongue," and "the body" — that self is impermanent, unstable, non-eternal, subject to change. But that which is called "mind" (citta) or "mentality" (mano) or "consciousness" (viññāṇa) — that self is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and it will remain the same just like eternity itself.
DN 15 gives instructions on how to analyze and begin to see through this kind of self-view.

:buddha1:

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Post by appicchato » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:22 am

...a lot of bahts.
1 Baht, 100 Baht... :coffee:

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Post by Colin Donoghue » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:13 pm

"Surely anyone with more than a cursory understanding of the Budhism would know Anatta is one of the central tennets."

This statement, along with the majority of other comments here, shows that Mara's influence is as strong as ever (i.e. misguiding people with ideas that are false, irrational and unethical). The Buddha in fact never taught a doctrine of No-self, he taught that the Self is not the Five Aggregates, and in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra actually explained that enlightenment includes realization of ones eternal Buddha-Nature/Self. The main point however is that to hold any metaphysical view about Self while still unenlightened (i.e. before realizing the full truth of it for oneself) is a form of delusion (one of the 3 Posions that keep us in Samsaric patterns of existence), and is not at all helpful toward acheiving liberation, which is why the Buddha in other Sutras remained silent when asked directly about the nature of Self.

Buddhism has become very corrupted by false teachings, to such an extent that many of those thinking they are defending true Buddhism are actually doing the opposite. I'm not familiar with the details of this Dhammakaya incident, but I am familiar with the Buddha's true teachings, which most of you apparently are not. More clarification here: https://sites.google.com/a/veganmail.co ... rstanding/

Peace,
Colin D. Donoghue

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:22 pm

Colin Donoghue wrote:the Mahaparinirvana Sutra actually explained that enlightenment includes realization of ones eternal Buddha-Nature/Self.
And that "sutra" is a late Mahayana writing, having no bearing whatsoever on the Theravada. It is not an authoritative text to the Theravada, and its teachings carry no weight for the Theravada.

You might find a more sympathetic hearing here: http://www.dharmawheel.net/
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Post by Mkoll » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:23 pm

Colin Donoghue wrote:"Surely anyone with more than a cursory understanding of the Budhism would know Anatta is one of the central tennets."

This statement, along with the majority of other comments here, shows that Mara's influence is as strong as ever (i.e. misguiding people with ideas that are false, irrational and unethical). The Buddha in fact never taught a doctrine of No-self, he taught that the Self is not the Five Aggregates, and in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra actually explained that enlightenment includes realization of ones eternal Buddha-Nature/Self. The main point however is that to hold any metaphysical view about Self while still unenlightened (i.e. before realizing the full truth of it for oneself) is a form of delusion (one of the 3 Posions that keep us in Samsaric patterns of existence), and is not at all helpful toward acheiving liberation, which is why the Buddha in other Sutras remained silent when asked directly about the nature of Self.

Buddhism has become very corrupted by false teachings, to such an extent that many of those thinking they are defending true Buddhism are actually doing the opposite. I'm not familiar with the details of this Dhammakaya incident, but I am familiar with the Buddha's true teachings, which most of you apparently are not. More clarification here: https://sites.google.com/a/veganmail.co ... rstanding/

Peace,
Colin D. Donoghue
Your first post on the forum is to revive a 2-year dead thread and throw a general insult in the direction of posters on the forum? Probably not the best way to introduce yourself. Just saying. ;)

So anyway, what do you think are the Buddha's true teachings? Or more specifically, what else do you think the "general Buddhist public" misunderstands about the Buddha's true teachings, e.g. the anatta example you gave?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:25 pm

Mkoll wrote:

So anyway, what do you think are the Buddha's true teachings?
Take a look at his linked blog thingie.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Post by Goofaholix » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:28 pm

Colin Donoghue wrote:Buddhism has become very corrupted by false teachings, to such an extent that many of those thinking they are defending true Buddhism are actually doing the opposite. I'm not familiar with the details of this Dhammakaya incident, but I am familiar with the Buddha's true teachings, which most of you apparently are not. More clarification here: https://sites.google.com/a/veganmail.co ... rstanding/
This thread is about a certain religious organisation replacing the teaching of "anatta" with "atta", ie not-self with self. Most people around here are well aware that the Buddhas teaching is that the 5 aggregates are not-self.

A quick skim through this thread and I could not find the post that you've objected to, would you kindly point out which post(s) you think deviate from the Buddhas teaching so that it can be discussed.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Post by Sokehi » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:29 pm

Colin Donoghue wrote:The main point however is that to hold any metaphysical view about Self while still unenlightened (i.e. before realizing the full truth of it for oneself) is a form of delusion (one of the 3 Posions that keep us in Samsaric patterns of existence), and is not at all helpful toward acheiving liberation, which is why the Buddha in other Sutras remained silent when asked directly about the nature of Self.
So at one time a certain belief is poisonous and at another time after attaining enlightenment the same belief suddenly is the truth?
Last edited by Sokehi on Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Post by Mkoll » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mkoll wrote:

So anyway, what do you think are the Buddha's true teachings?
Take a look at his linked blog thingie.
Ah, yes. I'll read and respond to that later when I have time.

Toodles for now!
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Post by Mkoll » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:53 pm

The final paragraph in Colin's paper:
Colin Donoghue wrote:I am in full agreement with the statements that our Buddha-Nature/Self is clearly not just the Five Aggregates, and that we should get to the real work of Buddhist practice and discard all distractions and distortions that hamper our progress on the path to gaining full insight/enlightenment, alleviating our own suffering and the suffering of all other beings; but the belief in absolute no-self clearly is an assumption made by later monks and scholars. Let us leave speculation and assumption behind and focus on the path to liberation, namely the Eightfold Path, and let us not skip the first step of Right View/Understanding, by claiming understanding of metaphysical truths that we honestly have no authority to maintain. Why can’t we be satisfied with the Buddha’s first sermon of the Four Noble Truths? Is that not enough for a lifetime of study and practice? Let’s take the Buddha's advice and not make assumptions about the full understanding of Self, so that we may be unheeded by wrong view in our progress toward enlightenment. For when we do achieve enlightenment then we will really understand the mystery of the Self, as well as why it is best to leave this mystery unexpressed to those that cannot fully understand or benefit from it.
The first sermon says that what's to be fully understood is suffering, its origin is to be abandoned, its cessation is to be realized, and the way to its cessation is to be developed (SN 56.11). You say we should be satisfied with this yet it seems like you're not satisfied as the gist of your paper was about "Self".

It also seems you are claiming the understanding of a metaphysical truth in asserting that there is Buddha-Nature/Self and claiming that enlightenment is about understanding the "mystery of the Self". And at the same time you say we should not make assumptions.

I see mixed messages here, that's all.

:thinking:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Post by Goofaholix » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote: Take a look at his linked blog thingie.
So he's spamming his own blog.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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