A good teacher is an absolute blessing, I don't doubt that. Those fortunate enough to have found a teacher they can work with in 3D are very lucky. But the 3 jewels are Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, not Buddha, Dharma, Teacher....
What was Buddha's view about the importance of having a teacher to work with one-on-one, vs the support of a sangha? For a layperson practitioner, is the support of a sangha more important then having a teacher, are they equally important or is a relationship with a teacher more essential?
How does the Theravadin tradition view this?
Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
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Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
What do you mean by Sangha, Chistopher? To me it means either the ordained monks and nuns or the noble disciples. Since my teachers are members of the ordained Sangha your question vanishes...
Here is something from one of the Thai Forest teachers:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... legem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is, of course, a modern use of the word "Sangha" to refer to a group of practitioners, who may or may not include your teacher...
Metta
Mike
Here is something from one of the Thai Forest teachers:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... legem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is, of course, a modern use of the word "Sangha" to refer to a group of practitioners, who may or may not include your teacher...
Metta
Mike
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Hi Mike. That link is extremely helpful. I feel a bit awkward admitting that all this time spent with fellow Buddhists at E-sangha, here and ZFI i still have some confusion. It's probably because it's been online fellowship, with people from a number of different schools and traditions.mikenz66 wrote:What do you mean by Sangha, Chistopher? To me it means either the ordained monks and nuns or the noble disciples. Since my teachers are members of the ordained Sangha your question vanishes...
Here is something from one of the Thai Forest teachers:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... legem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is, of course, a modern use of the word "Sangha" to refer to a group of practitioners, who may or may not include your teacher...
Metta
Mike
Anyway, I was asking in regards to the modern Western use of the term "Sangha" as well as the traditional approach and how the term was used by the Buddha. And wondering about differences that exist. Here in Japan most Buddhist layperson's that I've met do not have personal teachers, whereas most Western Buddhists either have teachers or are seeking one. Those that do not yet have a teacher (like myself) are often told (usually by Tibetan & Zen Buddhists) that we need to find a personal teacher in order to practice the dhamma correctly.
I was wondering how the situation is viewed with Theravadin practitioners.
I'm working thru that article. So, thanks!
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Hi Christopher and friends
Here is what Charles Prebish has to say about the development of the term 'sangha' in pages 204-206 of his book Luminous passage: the practice and study of Buddhism in America.
Here is what Charles Prebish has to say about the development of the term 'sangha' in pages 204-206 of his book Luminous passage: the practice and study of Buddhism in America.
With metta,
zavk
zavk
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
I think you'll get a lot of different answers. For me teachers are essential, but having one particular "guru" is not. To me it's like being at University learning from various professors...christopher::: wrote: I was wondering how the situation is viewed with Theravadin practitioners.
Metta
Mike
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Hi Christopher
I like what Mike said.
But with regards to myself - I've had the same teacher since I took refuge the first time 24 years ago. While I havent seen my teacher in about 20 years, I still derive benefit from continuing to practice as per his instructions and attend retreats organised along his guidelines. I've also found that as I have progressed and my knowledge increased, my reliance on the teacher has lessened. For me personally, having a teacher, being able to concentrate on the instructions of one teacher, was crucial for me in the beginning.
As regards to the value of a sangha (community of practitioners), I think it is invaluable in providing support to individual practitioners. I mean, have a look at Dhamma Wheel which operates as a virtual sangha and the support it provides its members in lieu of a teacher or real-world sangha.
Kind regards
Ben
I like what Mike said.
But with regards to myself - I've had the same teacher since I took refuge the first time 24 years ago. While I havent seen my teacher in about 20 years, I still derive benefit from continuing to practice as per his instructions and attend retreats organised along his guidelines. I've also found that as I have progressed and my knowledge increased, my reliance on the teacher has lessened. For me personally, having a teacher, being able to concentrate on the instructions of one teacher, was crucial for me in the beginning.
As regards to the value of a sangha (community of practitioners), I think it is invaluable in providing support to individual practitioners. I mean, have a look at Dhamma Wheel which operates as a virtual sangha and the support it provides its members in lieu of a teacher or real-world sangha.
Kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
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- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
the Dhamma and the Vinaya are the teachersIn the Maha-pari nibbāna Sutta, the Buddha taught:
"Now, Ananda, if it occurs to any of you -- 'The teaching has lost its authority; we are without a Teacher' -- do not view it in that way. Whatever Dhamma and Vinaya I have pointed out and formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when I am gone."
the Sangha are good friends
your question seams pointless taking this into account!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
- christopher:::
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Thank you Ben, Mike, Manapa and zavk,
Yes, i also find the "college professor" and "good friends" models helpful, with the virtual sangha of fellow practitioners to be essential. Which was in part where my question came from. Until the day comes (hopefully) where i connect with a specific teacher, as Ben has, i've gained a lot over the past 25+ years from meditating on my own, as well as from the teachings of a wide range of Buddhist teachers (past and present), as transmitted in audios and books.
I've needed that kind of detailed "instructional" input, but in terms of continuous back-and-forth assistance its the community of fellow dharma practitioners that i've interacted with online-- especially those who are further along in their practice then myself- that has been something new, something very crucial, which i did not have prior to 2005....
P.S. No offense, but what may seem pointless to you, Manapa, was simply not yet clear to moi. We're all at different points on the learning curve.
Yes, i also find the "college professor" and "good friends" models helpful, with the virtual sangha of fellow practitioners to be essential. Which was in part where my question came from. Until the day comes (hopefully) where i connect with a specific teacher, as Ben has, i've gained a lot over the past 25+ years from meditating on my own, as well as from the teachings of a wide range of Buddhist teachers (past and present), as transmitted in audios and books.
I've needed that kind of detailed "instructional" input, but in terms of continuous back-and-forth assistance its the community of fellow dharma practitioners that i've interacted with online-- especially those who are further along in their practice then myself- that has been something new, something very crucial, which i did not have prior to 2005....
P.S. No offense, but what may seem pointless to you, Manapa, was simply not yet clear to moi. We're all at different points on the learning curve.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Are there any living or dead respected Theravada masters who had not done some intensive practice with a teacher?
From where I stand, it seems that just about everyone is bound to benefit immensely from working with a realized (read: deeply insightful) teacher. Conversely, practicing with little or no guidance from a one-to-one interaction with a realized teacher, is bound to get just about everyone stuck, stagnating and/or going down the wrong path.
Simply because the momentum of wrong thought is so strong, the delusion so deep, the tricks of the self so effective that we do need a teacher at least to inspire us to practice, to hold up the mirror and to help cut through the BS.
I guess this view is not going to be popular here, but of course it's just a view.
_/|\_
From where I stand, it seems that just about everyone is bound to benefit immensely from working with a realized (read: deeply insightful) teacher. Conversely, practicing with little or no guidance from a one-to-one interaction with a realized teacher, is bound to get just about everyone stuck, stagnating and/or going down the wrong path.
Simply because the momentum of wrong thought is so strong, the delusion so deep, the tricks of the self so effective that we do need a teacher at least to inspire us to practice, to hold up the mirror and to help cut through the BS.
I guess this view is not going to be popular here, but of course it's just a view.
_/|\_
_/|\_
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Don't forget why and for what reason!christopher::: wrote:
P.S. No offense, but what may seem pointless to you, Manapa, was simply not yet clear to moi. We're all at different points on the learning curve.
something seams pointless taking certain things into account, not that there is no point.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Teacher.
Sangha.
Another play-in-the-sandbox dichotomy.
When I asked my teacher once what a "teacher" was, he swept up the fairy tales this way: "Except for me, everything is the teacher."
Sangha.
Another play-in-the-sandbox dichotomy.
When I asked my teacher once what a "teacher" was, he swept up the fairy tales this way: "Except for me, everything is the teacher."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
In some other traditions, there seems to be an emphasis on acquiring a teacher and having allegiance to this teacher. That may be helpful for some. But like genkaku's post above, I think everything and everyone can be your teacher. Why limit it to one person? As we know, there are some teachers with less than perfect Vinaya and other faults. Seeking teachers is certainly helpful, but I have personally found that having several is better than one, at least for me. I consider all of the monks and nuns and upasakas and upasikas to be my teachers. I learn from all, or at least attempt to.
And for those who do not have access to a community, online or off, there is always the Dhamma:
And for those who do not have access to a community, online or off, there is always the Dhamma:
"Monks, live with yourself as your island, yourself as your refuge, with nothing else as your refuge. Live with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, with nothing else as your refuge."
Digha Nikaya 26
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
In the triple gem, the Buddha is the teacher. Today we have his teaching (the Dhamma) and those that preserve his teachings (the monastic Sangha). There might even still be those that have penetrated and realized those teachings for themselves (the Noble Sangha).christopher::: wrote:A good teacher is an absolute blessing, I don't doubt that. Those fortunate enough to have found a teacher they can work with in 3D are very lucky. But the 3 jewels are Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, not Buddha, Dharma, Teacher....
They are the same thing. Having a teacher is the support of the sangha.What was Buddha's view about the importance of having a teacher to work with one-on-one, vs the support of a sangha?
...
For a layperson practitioner, is the support of a sangha more important then having a teacher, are they equally important or is a relationship with a teacher more essential?
What you seem to be asking is a one-on-one teacher vs a group discussion situation. On the one hand, one can learn Buddhism from a group or from a lone teacher so there is no difference. On the other hand, a group discussion tends to be more unfocused and free-ranging whereas a one-on-one discussion tends to be more focused and goes deeper. In addition, establishing a long term relationship with a teacher allows you to get to know each other and this helps any teaching situation. Compare this to a group of strangers, especially on the internet. Furthermore, if the group can't even agree on what Buddhism teaches, as is common on internet forums, then you're even worse off. One teacher who is actually part of the sangha who knows and respects Buddhism, dedicates his life to preserving and embodying those teachings, is a way different thing than a group of strangers all coming up with their own half-baked interpretations and debating them.
That depends what one hopes to learn. If one hopes to learn baking, then a baker is a better teacher than "everything and everyone". If one hopes to learn Buddhism, then one who studies, preserves, and practices those teachings is the better than "everything and everyone". One who has penetrated and realized those teachings for themselves is the best teacher of all.I think everything and everyone can be your teacher.
If one is not so much interested in learning Buddhism but is interested in gathering up random life experiences in the hopes of chancing upon something useful or profound... then perhaps everything and anyone is the way to go.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Yes, if you can find a teacher like that and have access to one. For many people, it is not that easy to find one near them. For example, Ben is very lucky to personally know S. N. Goenka. Talk about a teacher! He is quite lucky or should I say, earned it with his merits. But for others, it is not so easy to find a teacher or such a good one like Goenka.Peter wrote: If one hopes to learn Buddhism, then one who studies, preserves, and practices those teachings is the better than "everything and everyone". One who has penetrated and realized those teachings for themselves is the best teacher of all.
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
For many people, it is not that easy to find one near them.
Sure, we all make do with what we have.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.