masturbation what's wrong?

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Dan74
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:40 am

Oh no, not another masturbation thread!

C'mon people!! Most young people these days are addicted to porn, with the attendant fantasies interfering with their relationships, normal sensuality, etc. What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real.
_/|\_

Reductor
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by Reductor » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:46 am

Wanking should be fine, minus a rampant porn habit. Just don't get addicted to other men's wives, whatever else you do :tongue:

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Sam Vara
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:10 pm

Mkoll wrote:By self-pleasure, you mean masturbation?

If so, I'd say drinking breaks the 5th precept whereas I don't think masturbation breaks the 3rd.

But of course its better kamma to refrain from both.
:goodpost:

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ihrjordan
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by ihrjordan » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:23 pm

Dan74 wrote:Oh no, not another masturbation thread!

C'mon people!! Most young people these days are addicted to porn, with the attendant fantasies interfering with their relationships, normal sensuality, etc. What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real.
Didn't you just name the harm of the "occasional wank"? and then you say what's the harm in it....you contradicted yourself in a matter of two sentences. It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not. This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation! You're supposed to encourage him in doing good things that will truly make him happy and not delude him by saying "oh every now and then is fine" Verse 121 of the Dhammapada : Think lightly not of evil,
‘It will not come to me’,
for by the falling of water drops
a water jar is filled.
The fool with evil fills himself,
he soaks up little by little. And I kid you not the related story to this verse is about MASTURBATION. :tantrum:
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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daverupa
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by daverupa » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:16 pm

ihrjordan wrote:This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation!
Normal human sensuality includes cross-gender relationships, same-gender relationships, and masturbation throughout for both genders.

In Buddhism, renunciation of sensuality is a goal, but trying to say that masturbation is opposed to
ihrjordan wrote:normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend
^^ 'normal' sensuality is contradictory as well as simply false.

---

Masturbation is within the spectrum of healthy human sexual behavior, but the whole range of healthy human sexual behavior also includes asexuality, given the proper motive. In other words, fear and loathing of masturbation is not a proper motive, just as fear and loathing of sexuality in general is not proper, and singling out masturbation/non-procreative sexuality/etc. as particularly problematic vs. other sexual expressions is altogether off-course.

---

This goes to the OP in terms of trying to assess the specific weight of particular acts. The specifics are unconjecturable, but the general trend will be that greed is no good, in any situation, and trying to finagle a route through the least-bad is a speculation without wholesome motive. Whether to engage with this sexual expression instead of that one, or inebriation instead of sexuality, or this precept violation instead of that one... it's an interesting approach to ethics, to be sure.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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ihrjordan
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by ihrjordan » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:57 pm

I'm not opposed to or "afraid" of sensuality as you say. I'm just not going to sugar-coat this. All I'm saying is instead of indulging in the objects of your desire, try learning about them! You will come to see they do not bring you happiness and EVENTUALLY you will WANT to give them up naturally. I'm very surprised that most of you are taking a stance on this that is similar to that of a modern counselor.... What most of you are saying is the same thing as when a counselor tells someone to "hit a pillow when you get angry" and I'm sure that most of us would agree that's not how one should handle a problem. So why is it any different with masturbation nevermind alcohol? It seems like you guys are trying to make Buddhism user friendly and put a lighter interpretation of the teachings on him; which isn't a good way of encouraging goodness if you ask me.... It would be like if a teenage girl said to you "I like to cut myself because it gives me a rush of adrenaline and helps me to feel" would you say to her "it's ok as long as you're not hurting anyone else " of course you wouldn't...and btw i was quoting someone when I said "normal sensuality". Just because something is natural doesn't mean it has it's place.. here I was trying to promote the renunciate path without scaring him off by saying that it would be better to give up masurbation and stick with what society would call "normal sensuality" as a way of limiting yourself w/o driving yourself crazy by way of repression.. how is this an unwholesome act on my part again?
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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ihrjordan
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by ihrjordan » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:09 pm

And I said wife or girlfriend in the same way The Buddha would address a group of heterosexual monks. Without having every possible outlet for sexuality in mind at the time, not exactly a point of argument if you ask me.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

LXNDR
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by LXNDR » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:18 pm

ihrjordan wrote:What most of you are saying is the same thing as when a counselor tells someone to "hit a pillow when you get angry" and I'm sure that most of us would agree that's not how one should handle a problem. It seems like you guys are trying to make Buddhism user friendly and put a lighter interpretation of the teachings on him;
according to my tentative conclusions based on some observations there's a tendency with the Westerners to view the Dhamma teachings as a kind of psychotherapy rather than rigorous spiritual discipline, as those which are not meant to eradicate and uproot suffering but make the experience a little bit more tolerable

as some say 'if it's forbidden, but the desire is too strong, then it's allowed'

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Aloka
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by Aloka » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:46 pm

I think the key here is a regular meditation practice, as well as mindfulness during everyday activities. When the mind has more peacefulness and clarity, then there is less of that restless, reaching out to sense objects for satisfaction.

.

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ihrjordan
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by ihrjordan » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:00 pm

LXNDR wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:What most of you are saying is the same thing as when a counselor tells someone to "hit a pillow when you get angry" and I'm sure that most of us would agree that's not how one should handle a problem. It seems like you guys are trying to make Buddhism user friendly and put a lighter interpretation of the teachings on him;
according to my tentative conclusions based on some observations there's a tendency with the Westerners to view the Dhamma teachings as a kind of psychotherapy rather than rigorous spiritual discipline, as those which are not meant to eradicate and uproot suffering but make the experience a little bit more tolerable

as some say 'if it's forbidden, but the desire is too strong, then it's allowed'
My thoughts exactly. Go in 100% or turn back because trying to have your cake of sensuality and eat it to is a recipe for disaster (no pun intended)
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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daverupa
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by daverupa » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:59 pm

ihrjordan wrote:I'm not opposed to or "afraid" of sensuality as you say.
I didn't say you were. I set that idea aside with a --- mark, apart from your quote altogether.
All I'm saying is instead of indulging in the objects of your desire, try learning about them! You will come to see they do not bring you happiness and EVENTUALLY you will WANT to give them up naturally.
Agreed.
I'm very surprised that most of you are taking a stance on this that is similar to that of a modern counselor.... What most of you are saying is the same thing as when a counselor tells someone to "hit a pillow when you get angry" and I'm sure that most of us would agree that's not how one should handle a problem. So why is it any different with masturbation nevermind alcohol?
It isn't.
Just because something is natural doesn't mean it has it's place..
Again, this wasn't said, it's what you built up for yourself. I said that healthy human sexuality falls on a very broad spectrum of suitable social & private expressions. Activity in line with the Dhamma, while also on a spectrum from lay to monastic, is indeed that which inclines towards renunciation, and this also falls under the 'healthy' set.
here I was trying to promote the renunciate path without scaring him off by saying that it would be better to give up masurbation and stick with what society would call "normal sensuality" as a way of limiting yourself w/o driving yourself crazy by way of repression..
Indeed, the extremes of uhealthy repression and wanton indulgence are not helpful; seeing clearly for oneself is a primary concern, as we agree.
how is this an unwholesome act on my part again?
Again, this wasn't said.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Dan74
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:35 pm

ihrjordan wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Oh no, not another masturbation thread!

C'mon people!! Most young people these days are addicted to porn, with the attendant fantasies interfering with their relationships, normal sensuality, etc. What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real.
Didn't you just name the harm of the "occasional wank"? and then you say what's the harm in it....you contradicted yourself in a matter of two sentences. It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not. This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation! You're supposed to encourage him in doing good things that will truly make him happy and not delude him by saying "oh every now and then is fine" Verse 121 of the Dhammapada : Think lightly not of evil,
‘It will not come to me’,
for by the falling of water drops
a water jar is filled.
The fool with evil fills himself,
he soaks up little by little. And I kid you not the related story to this verse is about MASTURBATION. :tantrum:
No, I didn't, lhrjordan. I contrasted the reality where there is rampant sexual addiction of all sorts with occasional jerking off.

You seem to tie masturbation with all sorts of unwholesomeness, all sorts of accretions, but this is far from necessary. It can be just a natural relief of sensual urges of the body, very simple and unaffected. And building up all sorts of negativity on top of it is far more harmful than the act itself.

And what related story? Since when is Dhammapada about masturbation?

My point in this and other related threads is that there are too many demons around sexuality, too much 'extra stuff'. This is by far the biggest problem and one has little or no chance of renouncing sexuality in a wholesome way, if one doesn't come to terms with it first.
_/|\_

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tiltbillings
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:51 am

ihrjordan wrote:It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not.
Says who?
This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation! You're supposed to encourage him in doing good things that will truly make him happy and not delude him by saying "oh every now and then is fine" Verse 121 of the Dhammapada : Think lightly not of evil,
‘It will not come to me’,
for by the falling of water drops
a water jar is filled.
The fool with evil fills himself,
he soaks up little by little. And I kid you not the related story to this verse is about MASTURBATION.
Self-pleasuring is not mentioned in the commentary.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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ihrjordan
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not.
Says who?
This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation! You're supposed to encourage him in doing good things that will truly make him happy and not delude him by saying "oh every now and then is fine" Verse 121 of the Dhammapada : Think lightly not of evil,
‘It will not come to me’,
for by the falling of water drops
a water jar is filled.
The fool with evil fills himself,
he soaks up little by little. And I kid you not the related story to this verse is about MASTURBATION.
Self-pleasuring is not mentioned in the commentary.
The Story of Thera Seyyasaka

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (117) of this book, with reference to Thera Seyyasaka.

Once there was a thera by the name of Seyyasaka, who was in the habit of masturbating. When the Buddha heard about this, he rebuked the thera for doing something that would lead one farther away from the attainment of Magga and Phala. At the same time, the Buddha laid down the discipline prohibiting such indulgence in sexual pleasures, i.e., Samghadisesa Apatti, offences which require penance and suspension from the Order. Then, the Buddha added, "This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." oh really? courtesy of tipitika.net....and judging from this thread most of you seem like you have the view that you can become enlightened while still indulging in pleasures of the sense....I'm surprised honestly
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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ihrjordan
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:55 am

daverupa wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:I'm not opposed to or "afraid" of sensuality as you say.
I didn't say you were. I set that idea aside with a --- mark, apart from your quote altogether.
All I'm saying is instead of indulging in the objects of your desire, try learning about them! You will come to see they do not bring you happiness and EVENTUALLY you will WANT to give them up naturally.
Agreed.
I'm very surprised that most of you are taking a stance on this that is similar to that of a modern counselor.... What most of you are saying is the same thing as when a counselor tells someone to "hit a pillow when you get angry" and I'm sure that most of us would agree that's not how one should handle a problem. So why is it any different with masturbation nevermind alcohol?
It isn't.
Just because something is natural doesn't mean it has it's place..
Again, this wasn't said, it's what you built up for yourself. I said that healthy human sexuality falls on a very broad spectrum of suitable social & private expressions. Activity in line with the Dhamma, while also on a spectrum from lay to monastic, is indeed that which inclines towards renunciation, and this also falls under the 'healthy' set.
here I was trying to promote the renunciate path without scaring him off by saying that it would be better to give up masurbation and stick with what society would call "normal sensuality" as a way of limiting yourself w/o driving yourself crazy by way of repression..
Indeed, the extremes of uhealthy repression and wanton indulgence are not helpful; seeing clearly for oneself is a primary concern, as we agree.
how is this an unwholesome act on my part again?
Again, this wasn't said.
You seem to be nitpicking horribly...you said "healthy" which is another way of saying normal, natural, not frowned upon by society, good for you. w.e. you know what I'm saying...and I fail to see how masturbation is healthy in any way please elaborate what does it do thats beneficial for you as opposed to the unwholesomeness it brings? And you said "not a wholesome deed" ok well if it's not wholesome then what is it?
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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