Do you mean a transient self exists in samsara or a permanent self exists in samsara?LXNDR wrote:in my opinion the 'self' exists in samsara, once nibbana sets in, the self disappears
What is No-Self?
Re: What is No-Self?
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
- VinceField
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Re: What is No-Self?
LOL no sir, just a lot of practice, hard work and dedication to exploring the out of body state and altered states of consciousness.tiltbillings wrote:Drugs.VinceField wrote: I initially left out the details to keep it simple and avoid debate of the experiences that gave birth to my view.
I wouldn't give as much credibility to these experiences if they were drug induced, although I do believe that psychedelics are a doorway to legitimate alternate/spiritual dimensions and mystical experiences.
Last edited by VinceField on Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What is No-Self?
transientNo_Mind wrote:Do you mean a transient self exists in samsara or a permanent self exists in samsara?LXNDR wrote:in my opinion the 'self' exists in samsara, once nibbana sets in, the self disappears
Re: What is No-Self?
But then the question arises - if the self disappears how does the arahant perform daily tasks. For example to put it bluntly - when you are in a bus and you want to pee your self tells you not to pee till you find a restroom.LXNDR wrote:transientNo_Mind wrote:Do you mean a transient self exists in samsara or a permanent self exists in samsara?LXNDR wrote:in my opinion the 'self' exists in samsara, once nibbana sets in, the self disappears
If an arahant has no transient self then will he pee where he is standing? Some entity in the brain has to command "wait and pee when the bus stops and you find a restroom".
It is not like having a lobotomy is it?
Also I wanted to ask a question which is rather sensitive. If some one slaps an arahant will he not become annoyed? Then who is becoming annoyed?
This is not a joke but a serious question.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
Re: What is No-Self?
I briefly skimmed the link that you gave. She speaks of the "Christian experience, with the help of God, both inwardly as stillness, and outwardly as the Eucharist, can lead to the self's union with God." I don't understand how you could construe this as confirming the Dhamma.LXNDR wrote:saying that i had or have my doubts and/or second thoughts would be more accurateMkoll wrote:If just reading about someone's mystical experience makes you want to throw out the Dhamma, then you didn't have much faith in it to begin with.
now what i wrote in that post actually clearly shows that in my opinion her experience does confirm the Dhamma, so why would i throw out the Dhamma if her mystical or rather existential experience does confirm it? it's like discarding a fact independently confirmed by several people
so it makes me rather want to embrace it
That's the impression I got from what you wrote earlier:LXNDR wrote:how did you come to this peculiarly opposite conclusion?
~~~LXNDR wrote:against the argument 'why do we need this, we already have buddhavacana?' it can be said that Roberts unlike the suttas actually describes and reflects on the no-self experience and mechanism of being when no self exists
I'm curious: Did you actually read her book?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: What is No-Self?
I think the arahant performs daily tasks without relying on any idea of self.No_Mind wrote: But then the question arises - if the self disappears how does the arahant perform daily tasks.
It doesn't seem that way for me. When I have to pee, then I find appropriate place to do it... I don't waste time thinking about self. I'm not even a stream-entrant.No_Mind wrote: For example to put it bluntly - when you are in a bus and you want to pee your self tells you not to pee till you find a restroom.
Why would he pee where he is standing? That is inappropriate behavior...No_Mind wrote: If an arahant has no transient self then will he pee where he is standing? Some entity in the brain has to command "wait and pee when the bus stops and you find a restroom".
I think the trouble is that you're trying to view self as something essential, when it is just a label.No_Mind wrote: It is not like having a lobotomy is it?
He would not become annoyed... it is just someone that slapped him, for whatever reason.No_Mind wrote: Also I wanted to ask a question which is rather sensitive. If some one slaps an arahant will he not become annoyed? Then who is becoming annoyed?
Ok.No_Mind wrote: This is not a joke but a serious question.
Re: What is No-Self?
You don't waste time thinking about it and find an appropriate place. That is because you have a transient self in control - a master up in your noggin flicking switches. With self abolished an arahant does not have a master up there.beeblebrox wrote:It doesn't seem that way for me. When I have to pee, then I find appropriate place to do it... I don't waste time thinking about self. I'm not even a stream-entrant.No_Mind wrote: For example to put it bluntly - when you are in a bus and you want to pee your self tells you not to pee till you find a restroom.
Why would he pee where he is standing? That is inappropriate behavior...No_Mind wrote: If an arahant has no transient self then will he pee where he is standing? Some entity in the brain has to command "wait and pee when the bus stops and you find a restroom".
Inappropriate behavior is clinging to a view. Nothing is biologically wrong with peeing where you are standing. Only man has set up special places to pee in. With no view to cling to why will an arahant find a restroom?
I shudder to ask these questions but they are valid questions all the same. My questions may seem odd and insulting but given what we know of Nirvana they are fully valid questions.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Re: What is No-Self?
Hi No_Mind,No_Mind wrote: You don't waste time thinking about it and find an appropriate place. That is because you have a transient self in control - a master up in your noggin flicking switches. With self abolished an arahant does not have a master up there.
I wish I have the time to participate in a deeper way with this thread, but I actually don't... so please take this as my last post.
There is not a "master" anywhere that controls the behavior... it's only kamma and the fruits.
An arahant would not do it because he knows that it would cause more trouble than it's worth. (Not just with others, but also for himself, due to the mess that he would make on the robes.) That is not due to self.No_Mind wrote: Inappropriate behavior is clinging to a view. Nothing is biologically wrong with peeing where you are standing. Only man has set up special places to pee in. With no view to cling to why will an arahant find a restroom?
Re: What is No-Self?
that's the problem, you skimmed, i read and invited to read and not skimMkoll wrote:I briefly skimmed the link that you gave.
She speaks of the "Christian experience, with the help of God, both inwardly as stillness, and outwardly as the Eucharist, can lead to the self's union with God.
I don't understand how you could construe this as confirming the Dhamma.
this is what happens to an elephant when all a person perceives of it is its tail, sad
as they say 'don't judge a book by its cover'
whew
impressions, assumptions, wrong views, mental fermentations, oh wellMkoll wrote: That's the impression I got from what you wrote earlier:~~~LXNDR wrote:against the argument 'why do we need this, we already have buddhavacana?' it can be said that Roberts unlike the suttas actually describes and reflects on the no-self experience and mechanism of being when no self exists
I'm curious: Did you actually read her book?
no i didn't read her books
(i'm anticipating the next question to see whether my gut feeling is true)
Last edited by LXNDR on Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What is No-Self?
accommodation to the new way of functioning takes time for them, in other aspects the body functions on its own, the life force drives it, this is how awakened people describe it, including Bernadette RobertsNo_Mind wrote:But then the question arises - if the self disappears how does the arahant perform daily tasks. For example to put it bluntly - when you are in a bus and you want to pee your self tells you not to pee till you find a restroom.LXNDR wrote:
transient
If an arahant has no transient self then will he pee where he is standing? Some entity in the brain has to command "wait and pee when the bus stops and you find a restroom".
It is not like having a lobotomy is it?
Also I wanted to ask a question which is rather sensitive. If some one slaps an arahant will he not become annoyed? Then who is becoming annoyed?
This is not a joke but a serious question.
cannot speak for an arahant, i personally think they cannot become annoyed because their emotional self is gone, that's what is meant by dispassion and equanimity, no movement inside, perfect stillness
Last edited by LXNDR on Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is No-Self?
hello nomind,at this moment my understanding is that the word 'self' as a label is a conceptual construct that we use to keep this illusory world in place,ie. a survival technique.An arahant will not pee openly in public because he knows it to be wrong action.On being slapped on the face he would show compassion towards the assailant and possibly teach that person on kamma as in the results of unwholesome actions.
Re: What is No-Self?
"he knows it" and the knower is also clinging to a view (that it is wrong)bananaporridge wrote:hello nomind,at this moment my understanding is that the word 'self' as a label is a conceptual construct that we use to keep this illusory world in place,ie. a survival technique.An arahant will not pee openly in public because he knows it to be wrong action.On being slapped on the face he would show compassion towards the assailant and possibly teach that person on kamma as in the results of unwholesome actions.
There is a knower then. But how can that be. If self identity is abolished how can there be a knower. I can understand self view (sakkāya-diṭṭhi) as abolished by a stream-enterer.
If someone who has greater knowledge can please write about what is an arahant's view of self.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Re: What is No-Self?
Once again I have images of small dogs chasing their tails.! No offence to dogs or anyone else intended.
Re: What is No-Self?
Although I am not offended but delighted to be called a puppy - I can hardly be held responsible for your incomplete explanation.bananaporridge wrote:Once again I have images of small dogs chasing their tails.! No offence to dogs or anyone else intended.
Previously you wrote "at this moment my understanding" meaning you do not have full understanding yet you call me a dog !! Strange behavior from a Buddhist !!bananaporridge wrote:hello nomind,at this moment my understanding
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Re: What is No-Self?
I neither called you a dog or refer to myself as a buddhist.I wish you all the best nomind I'm sorry if my original post to you on this subject wasn't helpful for you.best wishes and metta to you.