Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ben
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by Ben »

LXNDR wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:So would you agree that learning martial arts would be good for a Buddhist?
I used to do martial arts and found that it made me more confident, physically and mentally. In hindsight though I'm not sure that feeling of confidence was particularly helpful from the point of view of Buddhist practice.
And practically speaking I think one has to be very good at martial arts for it to be any use as a defence in real-life situations.
agreed, to turn your skills useful in a real life situation, one must do lot's of sparrings, which doesn't pacify the mind and allay ill-will, animosity etc.
Having,practiced martial arts for a number of years, one of the best skills it gives is an increased awareness of one's physical security in a situation. The training helps to develop concentration and calm and assists in being able to assess a situation objectively and respond with equanimity.
So I disagree with your statement.
Kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ben wrote:
LXNDR wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:I used to do martial arts and found that it made me more confident, physically and mentally. In hindsight though I'm not sure that feeling of confidence was particularly helpful from the point of view of Buddhist practice.
And practically speaking I think one has to be very good at martial arts for it to be any use as a defence in real-life situations.
agreed, to turn your skills useful in a real life situation, one must do lot's of sparrings, which doesn't pacify the mind and allay ill-will, animosity etc.
Having,practiced martial arts for a number of years, one of the best skills it gives is an increased awareness of one's physical security in a situation. The training helps to develop concentration and calm and assists in being able to assess a situation objectively and respond with equanimity.
Ideally yes, though I think there is a risk that training can also give one a false sense of confidence. Actually I think it's difficult to generalise, and it depends a lot on the style of martial art and the teacher. Some of the teachers I trained under taught a quite aggressive approach, with attack being seen as the best form of defence.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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daverupa
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by daverupa »

Training in a martial art designed for practical use will address those concerns. The only problems I've ever seen with false confidence involve people who practice e.g. short-form Yang Taiji and think they're doing practical martial training.

For others such as Tae Kwon Do, we used to joke they were getting black belts in Taebo.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Ben
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by Ben »

Spiny Norman wrote: Ideally yes, though I think there is a risk that training can also give one a false sense of confidence. It probably depends on the style of martial art and the teacher.
And the student too.
But in my experience and observation, there is far greater calm, concentration, objectivity and better judgement.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Spiny Norman
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:Training in a martial art designed for practical use will address those concerns. The only problems I've ever seen with false confidence involve people who practice e.g. short-form Yang Taiji and think they're doing practical martial training.
Again, it very much depends on style and teacher, and of course the psychology of individual students.
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

walkart wrote:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:I wouldn't like to be confronted by a knife-wielding crack-addicted crazed mugger at the dead of night, in a less salubrious quarter of the city, and test that theory, if I am completely honest with you...
My metta is not perfect but twice in my life i saw a gun putted on me, also once when i was 12 some peoples tried to kidnapp me, i suppose for some slavery work. So i have some confidance in metta, and perhaps it can bring some secure to the practitioner.
Well this is a good point:
When you were 12, did you practice Metta during the attempt to kidnap you?
What did you do?
And what were the circumstances surrounding you being held at gunpoint....?

What did you do then?

And was the practice of metta uppermost in your mind?

It's an interesting thing to ponder....
Last edited by TheNoBSBuddhist on Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
Spiny Norman
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:For others such as Tae Kwon Do, we used to joke they were getting black belts in Taebo.
I did Tai Chi for a couple of years, and I remember thinking that it might be useful in fending off an attacker who was moving in slow motion. ;)
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

What many people may not realise is that in the Defensive Martial Arts, certain movements are replicated in the Passive Martial Arts, but practised in a slower, more defined, deliberate and carefully-monitored (second-by-second) way.

so an "aggressive" movement in Karate (for example), would be almost exactly replicated in Tai Chi (for example) but much more meditatively.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
daverupa
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by daverupa »

This is actually why they are ill-suited for martial applications, unless specifically trained-for. Taiji, for example, can be quite effective, but it takes working it that way. Otherwise it is soft moving/still qigong (which admittedly is nevertheless alleged have quasi-mystical martial applications after many decades of practice).
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

I volunteer at a local Hospice and teach Qi Gong in an unofficial and unpaid capacity.
I get many participants relating their own personal physical experiences and sensations, after the sessions, and almost every single one is seen as (as you say) a mystical, inexplicable connection to Earth- or Heaven-Energy.
They feel extremely comforted by it, and reports back from the staff and patients alike are very positive and encouraging; there is no doubt that the visible and measurable results show, quite clearly, that those participating benefit enormously from the practice, both physically and mentally. Many see it as a session during which they can also lose themselves meditatively.

I take their comments with positive pleasure and comment constructively.
But with the best and kindest will in the world, I "let it all go" as merely a current experience, a 'Now-Moment' and just look forward to the next time.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
LXNDR
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by LXNDR »

Ben wrote:
LXNDR wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: I used to do martial arts and found that it made me more confident, physically and mentally. In hindsight though I'm not sure that feeling of confidence was particularly helpful from the point of view of Buddhist practice.
And practically speaking I think one has to be very good at martial arts for it to be any use as a defence in real-life situations.
agreed, to turn your skills useful in a real life situation, one must do lot's of sparrings, which doesn't pacify the mind and allay ill-will, animosity etc.
Having,practiced martial arts for a number of years, one of the best skills it gives is an increased awareness of one's physical security in a situation. The training helps to develop concentration and calm and assists in being able to assess a situation objectively and respond with equanimity.
So I disagree with your statement.
Kind regards,
Ben
right, and it does condition you to putting up a fight

[b][url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thag/thag.16.01.than.html]Adhimutta (Thag 16.1)[/url][/b] wrote:
[The bandit chief:]

Those who
for the sake of sacrifice
for the sake of wealth
we have killed in the past,
against their will
have trembled & babbled
from fear.
But you —
you show no fear;
your complexion brightens.
Why don't you lament
in the face of what's greatly to be feared

[Ven. Adhimutta:]

There are no painful mental states, chieftain,
in one without longing.
In one whose fetters are ended,
all fears are overcome.

With the ending of [craving]
the guide to becoming,
when phenomena are seen
for what they are,
then just as in the laying down of a burden,
there's no fear in death.

I've lived well the holy life,
well-developed the path.
Death holds no fear for me.
It's like the end of a disease.

I've lived well the holy life,
well-developed the path,
seen states of becoming
as devoid of allure,
like poison spit out
after it's drunk.

One gone to the far shore
without clinging
without effluent
his task completed,
welcomes the ending of life,
as if freed from a place of execution.

Having attained the supreme Rightness,
unconcerned with all the world,
as if released from a burning house,
he doesn't sorrow at death.

Whatever's compounded,
wherever a state of becoming's obtained,
all that has no one in charge:
so says the Great Seer.

Whoever discerns this,
as taught by the Awakened One,
would no more grasp hold of any state of becoming
than he would a hot iron ball.

I have no 'I was,'
no 'I will be.'
Fabrications will simply go out of existence.
What's to lament there in that?
For one who sees, as it actually is,
the pure arising of phenomena,
the pure seriality of fabrications,
there's no fear.

When seeing the world with discernment
as on a par with grass & twigs,
finding no 'mine-ness,'
thinking, 'There's nothing of mine,'
he feels no sorrow.

Dissatisfied with this carcass,
I'm unconcerned with becoming.
This body will break up
and there will not be another.
Do as you like with this carcass.
From that I will feel
neither hatred nor love.

the man was an arahant however
mahat
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by mahat »

Buddha teaches to protect in this world and the next:

Buddha understands that Dhamma takes time to manifest after cultivation. He did advise on how to defend yourself and Buddhism is about clarity of vision which can only come about through righteousness and wisdom -- not pacifism, pacifism is another view of the politically correct brigade.
Self defense of Monks and Nuns who are still weak in The Dhamma falls under the rulers, all rulers are required to have warriors and an army:

A ruler is required to provide protection to both people and animals in the kingdom:

AN, Book of 3:15

“In this case, the world ruler, the just and righteous king, relying on the law of righteousness (Dhamma), honouring it, regarding it highly and respecting it, with the law of righteousness as his standard, banner and sovereign, provides lawful protection, shelter and safety for his own dependants. He provides lawful protection, shelter, and safety for the warrior-nobles attending on him; for his army, for the brahmins and householders, for the inhabitants of town and countryside, for ascetics and brahmins, for the beasts and birds.

“A world ruler, a just and righteous king, who thus provides lawful protection, shelter, and safety for all, is the one who rules by righteousness only. And that rule cannot be overthrown by any hostile creature in human form.

Also, no army deserters for monk hood, they must serve and protect first:

From The Mahavagga of The Vinaya:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe13/sbe1312...

4. Then the Magadha king Seniya Bimbisâra went to the place where the Blessed One was; having approached him and having respectfully saluted the Blessed One, he sat down near him. Sitting near him the Magadha king Seniya Bimbisâra said to the Blessed One: 'Lord, there are unbelieving kings who are disinclined (to the faith); these might harass the Bhikkhus even on trifling occasions. Pray, Lord, let their reverences not confer the pabbaggâ ordination on persons in royal service.'

Then the Blessed One taught (&c., see chap. 39. 7, p. 196 down to:), thus addressed the Bhikkhus: 'Let no one, O Bhikkhus, who is in the royal service, receive the pabbaggâ ordination. He who confers the pabbaggâ ordination (on such a person), is guilty of a dukkata offence:

The Kosiya Jataka advises King Pasenadi on timeliness of war:

Here Lord Buddha said, there is a time for everything including war, everyone should abide in practicing Dhamma and strike when the time is right:

No. 226.

KOSIYA-JatAKA.

[208] "There is a time," etc.--A story told by the Master at Jetavana, about the king of Kosala. This king started to quell a border rising at a bad season of the year. The circumstances have been described already 1. The Master as before told the king a story.

_____________________________

Once on a time, the king of Benares having started for the field of war at an unseasonable time, set up a camp in his park. At that time an Owl entered a thicket of bamboos, and hid in it. There came a flock of Crows: "We will catch him," said they, "so soon as he shall come out." And they compassed it around. Out he came before his time, nor did he wait until the sun should set; and tried to make his escape. The crows surrounded him, and pecked him with their beaks till he fell to the ground. The king asked the Bodhisatta: "Tell me, wise sir, why are the crows attacking this owl?" And the Bodhisatta made answer, "They that leave their dwelling before the right time, great king, fall into just such misery as this. Therefore before the time one should not leave one's

p. 147

dwelling place." And to make the matter clear, he uttered this pair of verses:

"There is a time for every thing: who forth from home will go
One man or many, out of time, will surely meet some woe;
As did the Owl, unlucky fowl! pecked dead by many a crow.
"Who masters quite each rule and rite; who others' weakness knows;
Like wise owls, he will happy be, and conquer all his foes."

[209] When the king heard this, he turned back home again.
The Dipi Jataka Shows how a goat tried being nice to a Jaguar who wanted to eat her, her Metta attempts failed and she died. In another life when Buddha is there she smartens up and knowing nothing will stop this being from killing her, she fights:
’Twas thus the she-goat cried for grace: but blood must satisfy
The beast that grips her throat; the bad will shew no courtesy.
Conduct, nor right, nor courtesy, the bad man will display;
He hates the good: to face him then ’tis best in open fray.

The Goat "mans up" with the presence of The Lord by her:

She looked all round, and saw the panther. "He is there because he wishes to kill and eat me," she thought; "if I turn and run, my life is lost; I must play the man," and so she tosses her horns, and sprang straight at him with all her might. She escaped his grip, though he was quivering with the thought of catching her: then running at full speed she came up with the other goats. The Elder observed how all the animals had behaved: next day he went and told the Tathagata, "So, lord, this she-goat performed a feat by her readiness in device, and escaped from the panther."
Buddha advises, know your strength:

The Jambuka Jataka:

A jackal once assumed the lion's pride,
And elephant as equal foe defied.
Prone on the earth, while groans his bosom rent,
He learned the rash encounter to repent.
p. 76

Who thus should challenge one of peerless fame,
Nor mark the vigour of his well-knit frame,
Shares the sad fate that on the jackal came.
But who the measure of his own power knows,
And nice discretion in his language shows,
True to his duty lives and triumphs o’er his foes.
Now, if you are weak in Dhamma and there are people who are KILLiNG your loved ones and are a constant threat to your family, tribe, country --take them down! They are killing and breaking Dhamma! I love this, perhaps the following Jataka influenced the Seven Samurai, but the story is about a cowardly village of boars who are being killed daily by an evil tiger under control of an ascetic, an outsider boar teaches them how to wage war --no mercy is shown here and the tiger and ascetic are killed - all evil enemies are destroyed!
The Taccha Sukara Jataka
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... edirect=no

“Here will I dwell with all my kin, not anxious, at my ease,
Having no trouble, fearing nought from any enemies.
The Boars on hearing this verse responded with the fourth stanza:
“A foe is here! Some otherwhere take refuge, go thy ways:
Ever the choicest of the herd, O Carpenter, he slays!”
“Who is that foe? Come tell me true, my kindred, so well met,
Who is’t destroys you? Though he has not quite destroyed you yet.”
“A king of beasts! Striped up and down he is, with teeth to bite:
Ever the choicest of the herd he slays–a beast of might!”

“And have our bodies lost their strength? Have we no tusks to show?
We shall o’ercome him if we work together: only so.”
“Sweet words to hear, O Carpenter, of which my heart is fain:
Let no Boar flee! Or he shall be after the battle slain!”
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by Spiny Norman »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote: so an "aggressive" movement in Karate (for example), would be almost exactly replicated in Tai Chi (for example) but much more meditatively.
There's a connection, but I'm not sure I'd classify Tai Chi as a martial art. Doesn't "martial" means war-like?
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Non Violence, self defence and defence of others

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

I merely mention it because I had exponents of Karate coming to my classes, and in some movements, they would say "oh, we do that in Karate, but more quickly...."

It is a well-known fact that the Samurai practised the passive arts to prepare their minds for war.
And passive Martial Arts are designed to instil grace, fluidity, discipline and harmony to the mental attitude as well as encouraging balance, poise and 'groundedness' in the body.

Warriors use the Passive Martial arts as additional training....

This is from what I have heard and learnt.
Your view may differ.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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