i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

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culaavuso
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by culaavuso »

wolf1 wrote:maybe. thanks. but he told to me that i did adultery in a past life and this is the reason.
The suttas do describe consequences of sexual misconduct, but a preference for sexual activity with the same sex does not seem to match the description given.
AN 8.40: Apāya­saṃvattanika Sutta wrote: Sexual misconduct, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one reborn as a human being sexual misconduct at minimum conduces to enmity and rivalry.
The suggested focal point for attention given in the suttas is the four noble truths and the eightfold path. Conjecture about past lives does not seem to be particularly helpful to the path.
AN 4.77: Acinteyya Sutta wrote: The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
MN 2: Sabbāsava Sutta wrote: This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
...
The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.
...
He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

wolf1 wrote:HE IS A THERA MONK

WELL SHAME ON HIM!!
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
daverupa
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by daverupa »

wolf1 wrote:maybe. thanks. but he told to me that i did adultery in a past life and this is the reason.
Please consider how this sort of specificity is probably only vexing & not at all descriptive in any case.

Sexual orientation involves spectra of human behavior, not modules of human categorization. This latter approach is usefully classificatory at times, but quickly loses any real descriptive power as people are discussed in detail.

Please be at ease; one's attention to and relationship with sexuality has causes, but without worrying about the past specifics that led to here and now, put in place those specific motives that lead to dispassion and calm observation of this matter. Speculations about how one was in the past is not the way.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
wolf1
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by wolf1 »

then why he did this conjecture?? :/ he teaches me sometimes and he did it with me. i don't understand.
daverupa
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by daverupa »

wolf1 wrote:then why he did this conjecture?? :/ he teaches me sometimes and he did it with me. i don't understand.
Ask them for an explanation of their thinking.

:anjali:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by Cittasanto »

wolf1 wrote:forum mebers,

i am a woman but i like women. is it really bad? it seems like a bad karma since i often feel that i have a harder life than heterosexual persons, and if anybody is other than normal it can brings some difficulties in the person's life.
and since it is a bad karma then is gay and lesbian sex are bad to the mind - and makes the Path slower?
There is nothing wrong with being homosexual!
You didn't choose to be homosexual so it isn't kamma, although engaging in the act is, it could be a Vipaka (fruition, result) of something (no one could tell what).

This is the life you have, and you can act in accord with the principles of the precepts (and other homosexuals do in homosexual relationships), and not let others dictate how you should feel about yourself. Or you can deny and repress yourself to fit into what you think people expect and not be who you are.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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LXNDR
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by LXNDR »

wolf1 wrote:but he told to me that i did adultery in a past life and this is the reason.
he must be a buddha or an arahant to say that with certainty :)
wolf1 wrote:HE IS A THERA MONK
of what descent is he? he must be under influence of a view popular in the society he was brought up in
Last edited by LXNDR on Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Mkoll
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by Mkoll »

As others have shown, from a Buddhist perspective homosexuality is not condemned.

However, the standards of many societies do have norms somewhere along the lines of "homosexuality is bad". In some countries, homosexuals can even be lawfully put to death for their homosexuality. So maybe what you're feeling and/or what that monk is saying is conditioned by some societal condemnation.
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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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SDC
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by SDC »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:I'm sorry, but I am calling BS on this.

And I'm the NoBS Buddhist.
FTW!!!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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manas
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by manas »

wolf1 wrote:Theravada.
This 'teacher' is misrepresenting our tradition. If anyone is making bad kamma, it's him/her, for both that misrepresentation, and for making you feel bad about something there's absolutely nothing wrong with.

If you feel isolated feeling the way you do, there's an Internet Forum called
'empty closets' in which lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender folk can talk anonymously, support each other, and generally hang out. Here's a link:
http://emptyclosets.com/forum/
At the top of the site it says, "A safe online community for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender people coming out" and my experience of it thus far confirms this as true. :smile:

I wish you well and hope you can just accept this aspect of your life. It is natural - for those of us who feel that way. Just as heterosexuality is natural for those who feel that way. Accept yourself as you are, and your life will get a whole lot richer and more joyful, as mine did (I'm a bisexual man, and a Buddhist - no problem).

metta,
manas.
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:I'm sorry, but I am calling BS on this. [That being gay or a woman is a result of previous bad kamma.] And I'm the NoBS Buddhist. How in heaven's name does he know?? And honestly, with everyone here telling you that he's wrong, giving you references, teachings and articles to PROVE to you that he is wrong - why are you still giving him any credence whatsoever?? Quit making excuses or putting forward reasons - He is wrong!!
And I am calling BS on your opinion. No one has proved that he is wrong. He knows this, because unlike you, the elder has a good knowledge of the texts and Commentaries. One can find similar statements in books by other well-known elders, such as “What Kamma Is” by Sayādaw U Ṭhitila.
To complete the offence of un-chastity (sexual misconduct), four conditions are necessary, viz: the mind to enjoy the forbidden object, the attempt to enjoy, devices to obtain, and possession. The effects of un-chastity are: having many enemies, getting undesirable wives, birth as a woman or as an eunuch.
When elders make such statements, they are not just expressing their personal opinions as you are, nor do they have the knowledge of previous lives, but they do have knowledge of the texts and Commentaries.

Women suffer greater hardship than men do in this life — that is an undeniable fact even in liberal societies. Even nuns do not enjoy the same wide support that monks enjoy.

Women have to endure the effects of menstruation and childbirth. Gay men and women have to endure the additional suffering of rejection by their own parents or siblings, social ostracism, prejudice and discrimination in the workplace, and oppression from unjust laws in many countries. Those who know Buddhism well are neither sexist nor homophobic. They understand that sexual desire is the cause of birth, and that from birth the whole mass of suffering arises. Whether one is heterosexual, homosexual, or celibate, sexual desire leads to suffering.

They understand that the diversity of living beings is due to the diversity of their kamma, it is not just an accidental or random occurrence without any cause. They also understand that wholesome kamma always gives agreeable results, and that unwholesome kamma always gives disagreeable results. The concluding statement in De Silva's article shows the attitude of well-informed traditional Buddhists:
This had led some Western homosexuals to believe that homosexuality is quite accepted in Buddhist countries of South and South-east Asia. This is certainly not true. In such countries, when homosexuals are thought of at all, it is more likely to be in a good-humored way or with a degree of pity. Certainly the loathing, fear and hatred that the Western homosexual has so often had to endure is absent and this is due, to a very large degree, to Buddhism's humane and tolerant influence.
There is at least as much unwholesome kamma made by heterosexuals driven by craving as is done by homosexuals. Promiscuity, Adultery, Child molestation, Rape, etc., are all heavy unwholesome kamma. Homosexuals are no more and no less likely to commit sexual misconduct than heterosexuals, but they still have to suffer more due to societal prejudice.
culaavuso wrote: Conjecture about past lives does not seem to be particularly helpful to the path.
That would depend on how it is done. When we suffer injustice of any kind, we can reflect wisely that since it was not due to anything we did in this existence, that it may have been due to something done in a previous existence. Wise reflection will enable us to let go of enmity, and have compassion for the wrong-doer who is mistreating us.

It's easy to be happy and gay, as long as life goes one's own way,
But the man worthwhile is the man with a smile,
When everything goes dead wrong.
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

The OP made it quite clear that the Monk told her homosexuality is wrong, and that this present life is due to a specific circumstance in a previous life.

THAT'S what I call BS on.

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that virtually everyone on this board is better educated than I, on Sutta references and teachings. That, I have never denied; In fact, I have often confirmed it.... neither do I deny the content of the remainder of your post, but that's not the discussion here. The discussion is the unskillful way in which this Theravadan Monk has spoken to wolf1 and made her feel.
a teacher (i don't say name) told it to me that it is bad......he told to me that i did adultery in a past life and this is the reason.
I am speaking of his opinion. Because frankly, that's all it can be. Unless he indicated that his words were specifically connected to a specific sutta, and mentioned that, specifically - then he gave her his opinion.
And I strongly disagree with it.

Please don't put Wrong Intentions into my mouth.
Thanks.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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rowboat
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by rowboat »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:The OP made it quite clear that the Monk told her homosexuality is wrong, and that this present life is due to a specific circumstance in a previous life.

THAT'S what I call BS on.

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that virtually everyone on this board is better educated than I, on Sutta references and teachings. That, I have never denied; In fact, I have often confirmed it.... neither do I deny the content of the remainder of your post, but that's not the discussion here. The discussion is the unskillful way in which this Theravadan Monk has spoken to wolf1 and made her feel.
a teacher (i don't say name) told it to me that it is bad......he told to me that i did adultery in a past life and this is the reason.
I am speaking of his opinion. Because frankly, that's all it can be. Unless he indicated that his words were specifically connected to a specific sutta, and mentioned that, specifically - then he gave her his opinion.
And I strongly disagree with it.

Please don't put Wrong Intentions into my mouth.
Thanks.
The person you are addressing here, Bhikkhu Pesala, is a monk. He should be addressed as "bhante" or "venerable sir" or "reverend."
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Bhante:
The OP made it quite clear that the Monk told her homosexuality is wrong, and that this present life is due to a specific circumstance in a previous life.

THAT'S what I call BS on.

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that virtually everyone on this board is better educated than I, on Sutta references and teachings. That, I have never denied; In fact, I have often confirmed it.... neither do I deny the content of the remainder of your post, but that's not the discussion here. The discussion is the unskillful way in which this Theravadan Monk has spoken to wolf1 and made her feel.
a teacher (i don't say name) told it to me that it is bad......he told to me that i did adultery in a past life and this is the reason.
I am speaking of his opinion. Because frankly, that's all it can be. Unless he indicated that his words were specifically connected to a specific sutta, and mentioned that, specifically - then he gave her his opinion.
And I strongly disagree with it.

Please don't put Wrong Intentions into my mouth.
Thanks, Reverend.

Apologies for the added omissions.
Last edited by TheNoBSBuddhist on Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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waterchan
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Post by waterchan »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:The discussion is the unskillful way in which this Theravadan Monk has spoken to wolf1 and made her feel.
But you don't know for a fact whether the way in which the monk spoke to her was unskillful (i.e. akusala).

If the monk told her matter-of-factly, without unwholesome volition "You are homosexual because you committed adultery in a past life," then that is not technically unskillful behavior. It is at worst faulty logic, a fallacy of affirming the consequent. ("The Buddha said adultery leads to homosexuality in the next life. You are homosexual, therefore you committed adultery in a past life.")

Unfortunately I have heard many commit this fallacy, both monks and laypeople alike.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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