Is Arahant a five aggregate?

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro, I fail to follow your logic. Sorry.

As Bhikkhu Bodhi observes: The fifth [wrong view that Tathagata as one who is without form...] conceives the Tathāgata as entirely transcendent, without any essential relation to the aggregates.




Mike

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

On feelings: There is, of course, pleasant feeling, but there is also pleasure which is not a feeling.

A difficult point for English speakers? See MN 59.16

Regards, Vincent.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Hi Retro, I fail to follow your logic. Sorry.

Maybe Ven. Nanananda's explanation might be more to your liking...

http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... dstilled33

The other day we happened to mention the conclusive answer given by the Buddha to the question raised by the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta in the Aggivacchagottasutta of the Majjhima Nikāya, concerning the after death state of the Tathāgata. But we had no time to discuss it at length. Therefore let us take it up again.

When the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta had granted the incongruity of any statement to the effect that the extinguished fire has gone in such and such a direction, and the fact that the term Nibbāna is only a reckoning or a turn of speech, the Buddha follows it up with the conclusion:

Evameva kho, Vaccha, yena rūpena tathāgataṃ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, taṃ rūpaṃ tathāgatassa pahīnaṃ ucchinnamūlaṃ tālāvatthukataṃ anabhāvakataṃ āyatiṃ anuppādadhammaṃ. Rūpasaṅkhāvimutto kho, Vaccha, tathāgato, gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho, seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo. Uppajjatī'ti na upeti, na uppajjatī'ti na upeti, uppajjati ca na ca uppajjatī'ti na upeti, neva uppajjati na na uppajjatī'ti na upeti.[702]

"Even so, Vaccha, that form by which one designating the Tathāgata might designate him, that has been abandoned by him, cut off at the root, made like an uprooted palm tree, made non-existent and incapable of arising again. The Tathāgata is free from reckoning in terms of form, Vaccha, he is deep, immeasurable and hard to fathom, like the great ocean. To say that he is reborn falls short of a reply, to say that he is not reborn falls short of a reply, to say that he is both reborn and is not reborn falls short of a reply, to say that he is neither reborn nor is not reborn falls short of a reply."

As in the case of the aggregate of form, so also with regard to the aggregates of feeling, perception, preparations and consciousness, that is to say, in regard to all the five aggregates of grasping, the Buddha made this particular declaration. From this it is clear, that in this dispensation the Tathāgata cannot be reckoned in terms of any one of the five aggregates.

The similes reveal to us the state of the Tathāgata - the simile of the uprooted tree, for instance. On seeing a palm tree uprooted, but somehow left standing, one would mistake it for a growing palm tree. The worldling has a similar notion of the Tathāgata. This simile of the tree reminds us of the Isidattatheragāthā, which has an allusion to it.

Pañcakkhandhā pariññātā,
tiṭṭhanti chinnamūlakā,
dukkhakkhayo anuppatto,
patto me āsavakkhayo.[703]
"Five aggregates, now fully understood,
Just stand, cut off at their root,
Reached is suffering's end,
Extinct for me are influxes."

On reaching arahant-hood, one finds oneself in this strange situation. The occurrence of the word saṅkhā in this connection is particularly significant. This word came up in our discussion of the term papañca in the contexts papañcasaṅkhā and papañcasaññāsaṅkhā.[704] There we had much to say about the word. It is synonymous with samaññā, "appellation", and paññatti, "designation". Reckoning, appellation and designation are synonymous to a great extent. So the concluding statement of the Buddha, already quoted, makes it clear that the Tathāgata cannot be reckoned or designated in terms of form, though he has form, he cannot be reckoned by feeling, though he experiences feeling, nor can he be reckoned by, or identified with, the aggregates of perceptions, preparations or consciousness.

Now in order to make a reckoning, or a designation, there has to be a duality, a dichotomy. We had occasion to touch upon this normative tendency to dichotomize. By way of illustration we may refer to the fact that even the price of an article can be reckoned, so long as there is a vortex between supply and demand. There has to be some kind of vortex between two things, for there to be a designation. A vortex, or vaṭṭa, is an alternation between two things, a cyclic interrelation. A designation can come in only so long as there is such a cyclic process. Now the Tathāgata is free from this duality.

We have pointed out that the dichotomy between consciousness and name-and-form is the saṃsāric vortex. Let us refresh our memory of this vortex by alluding to a quotation from the Udāna which we brought up on an earlier occasion.

Chinnaṃ vaṭṭaṃ na vattati,
es' ev' anto dukkhassa.[705]
The whirlpool cut off whirls no more.
This, even this, is suffering's end."

This, in fact, is a reference to the arahant. The vortex is between consciousness and name-and-form. By letting go of name-and-form, and realizing the state of a non-manifestative consciousness, the arahant has, in this very life, realized the cessation of existence, which amounts to a cessation of suffering as well. Though he continues to live on, he does not grasp any of those aggregates tenaciously. His consciousness does not get attached to name-and-form. That is why it is said that the vortex turns no more.

Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

Thank you for reminding us of that sutta. On the face of it. MN 72, Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta, appears to contradict SN 22.85, Yamaka sutta.

Let's look at some other translations of the Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and comments:

20. “So too, Vaccha, the Tathāgata has abandoned that material form by which one describing the Tathāgata might describe him; [722] he has cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, done away with it so that it is no longer subject to future arising. The Tathāgata is liberated from reckoning in terms of material form, Vaccha, he is profound, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the ocean. ‘He reappears’ does not apply; ‘he does not reappear’ does not apply; ‘he both reappears and does not reappear’ does not apply; ‘he neither reappears nor does not reappear’ does not apply. [723]

[722] MA says this is the material form by which one would describe the Tathāgata as a being (or self) possessing material form. MṬ adds that the material form has been abandoned by the abandonment of the fetters connected with it, and it has thus become incapable of arising again in the future.

[723] This passage should be connected with the simile of the extinguished fire. Just as the extinguished fire cannot be described as having gone to any direction, so the Tathāgata who has attained to final Nibbāna cannot be described in terms of the four alternatives. The simile concerns solely the legitimacy of conceptual and linguistic usage and is not intended to suggest, as some scholars have held, that the Tathāgata attains to some mystical absorption in the Absolute. The words “profound, immeasurable, hard to fathom” point to the transcendental dimension of the liberation attained by the Accomplished One, its inaccessibility to discursive thought.

It seems that at this point in the dialogue, the Buddha resorts to imagery to suggest what concepts cannot convey. The two images—of the extinguished fire and the deep ocean—establish between themselves a dialectical tension, and thus both must be taken into account to avoid falling into one-sided views. The image of the extinguished fire, taken alone, veers in the direction of total extinction, and thus must be balanced by the image of the ocean; the image of the ocean, taken alone, suggests some eternal mode of being, and thus must be balanced by the image of the extinguished fire. Again, the truth lies in the middle that transcends untenable extremes.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation:

"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

These translations appear to have the straightforward reading that the form, etc, is not going to rearise, since "it's root [is] destroyed".

Of course, Ven Nananda's translation and analysis is thought provoking, and worthy of careful consideration. It would be interesting to see how he would translate the Yamaka Sutta.


Mike

[Peter]

An Arahant posesses the 5 aggregates. For sure.

An Arahant sees, but there is no seer. That means there is no response to the object which comes into the eye (as the door of sense)
He/she is a hears, without someone who hears.
and so on.

The aggregates are functioning, indeed, but it does not arise in the mental consciousness of vedana and clinging
and pointing on it by meanings.
I guess it will be just pure awareness without any kind of identification towards any kind of object or phassa towards objects.

Blue is just blue, just a colour between other colours. So why care for it ?
A sound is just a sound, nothing else.

so my point of view

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

On contact: See Bodhi - NDB, book of fours 173 Kotthita, page 539.

"With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases for
contact there is the cessation of proliferation, the subsiding of proliferation."

Regards, Vincent.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Vincent,

Well yes, that would explain why nippapanca is synonymous with nibbana... but I'm confused as to its correlation to the five aggregates. Can you explain?

Metta,
Retro.

[Unrul3r]

Is Arahant a five aggregate?
The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.

"But, friend Sariputta, what are the things that a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to?"
"Friend Kotthita, a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself. For the arahant, friend, there is nothing further that has to be done and no repetition of what he has already done. However, when these things are developed and cultivated, they lead to a pleasant dwelling in this very life and to mindfulness and clear comprehension."

[Zom]

Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html

[vinasp]

Hi retro,

Can I explain? Probably not but it's worth a try.

"With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases for
contact there is the cessation of proliferation, the subsiding of proliferation."

I would express this in another way:

"With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases for
contact there is the cessation of mental constructive activity."

What was constructed was "self-and-world", also called sakkaya (the five
clinging aggregates) and "suffering". This is the cessation of "this world."

What's left is the five aggregates - the conceit 'I am" and it's world.
This is called "another world". So the non-returner is said to be "one of
spontaneous arising" who will not return from "that world"

But this too is only a mental construction. So for the final state it is said
that "there is no this world, no other world."

Regards, Vincent.

[daverupa]

Is Arahant a five aggregate?
The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.

"But, friend Sariputta, what are the things that a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to?"
"Friend Kotthita, a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself. For the arahant, friend, there is nothing further that has to be done and no repetition of what he has already done. However, when these things are developed and cultivated, they lead to a pleasant dwelling in this very life and to mindfulness and clear comprehension."

Very nice, apt find.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

Contradictions in the teachings.

The Buddha tells us that the monks who are "ordinary men" are ignorant and do not understand the four noble truths. Also that the monks who are "noble-disciples" have knowledge and that they do understand the truths. The same distinction applies to lay followers.

The "ordinary men" have a completely different understanding of the teachings.
So half of the discourses are composed for these ordinary men, so that they can "understand" the teachings. If they hear the teachings intended for noble disciples they find them incomprehensible.

At some point in time all the teachings were gathered together and written down , this is what we call the Sutta Pitaka.

The first thing to decide when looking at a discourse is -Who is this intended for?

Regards, Vincent.

[Ananda26]

Is Arahant a five aggregate?
The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.

There is nothing in the 5 aggregates that can find a footing in the Arahant that would lead to a rebirth.

While his body persists before Parinibbana, he may seem to be composed of form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, but he does not cling to the 5 aggreagates affected by clinging.

[Mkoll]

My view is that for the arahant, there is still the experience of consciousness, mind-body, the six sense bases, contact, and feeling. And there is no identification with these things because there is no craving, clinging, becoming, birth, death, ignorance, or volitional formations to be found.

But this is just speculation based upon "logical conjecture" (Kalama Sutta) and has no bearing on that which must be experienced. And that's something I hope we all experience sooner rather than later.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Is Arahant a five aggregate?
The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.

"But, friend Sariputta, what are the things that a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to?"
"Friend Kotthita, a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself. For the arahant, friend, there is nothing further that has to be done and no repetition of what he has already done. However, when these things are developed and cultivated, they lead to a pleasant dwelling in this very life and to mindfulness and clear comprehension."

Very nice, apt find.

SN 22.122 is indeed interesting, but when the sutta is viewed in its entirety, it seems to be saying that all non-arahants ought to do some variety of satipatthana/vipassana meditation... And even though the arahant no longer needs to do so, because they're no longer tricked by such things (taking into account what Ven. Nanananda says about the aggregates and arahants in the earlier quote I provided), it would still be a pleasant abiding for them... like "flow", only better, because arahants are cool.

Metta,
Retro.