Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by Jechbi » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:05 pm

Right, Tilt. Which brings us back to this:
tiltbillings wrote:
Jechbi wrote:This [commentary reference] goes to the relatively narrow issue of paticca-samuppada and the not-self conditions that give rise to each phenomenon. It does not go to the broader issue of whether the notion of "god" in all its myriad permutations must in all circumstances and without exception be immediately abandoned.
It goes to the idea of a god, in whatever way, that is the cause of the world, a god with whom, in some way, for whatever reason we concoct, we must identify.
Jechbi wrote:... [the God concept] is unnecessary except for the person who has a deep-rooted kamma of understanding the term "god" in a certain way, usually in a different way than the caricature "god" that's so easy to dismiss. For such a person, the "god" concept is the kammic framework within which he or she must work. It's what she's stuck with. Eventually, one hopes, we all will arrive at the experience of truth beyond concepts. But meanwhile, we each are the owners of our kamma. We work with what we got. I think a lot of this is an issue of semantics.
Yes and no, but your point here makes the Kosha’s point above.
The notion of "God as cause" is not the only formulation out there. But you are correct that the God notion generally involves self-identification and self-propogation. As does all manner of upadana. The question is, how best to confront it head on and understand it within oneself. Different people will digest their kamma of God-belief in different ways. Some will understand the term "God" differently than you understand the term. That's why this type of discussion sometimes unravels at the level of semantics.

"Delve with the knife, thou wise one."
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by Jechbi » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:43 pm

Something covered in Chapter 3 of that work:
72c-d. The gods do not see their superiors without magic or the assistance of another.
source
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:49 pm

Why not a buddhist trying to change Gods message into Dhamma?
Cant really see why a Buddhist would want to

The reason to believe that such a thing exists is not to assume that it exists, but rather because it is of noble belief, of right belief, and not out of fear either but out of compassion for all beings. Such a belief is called being mastered by the heart, and is the only reason when the Buddha let go of his mind of striving for enlightenment that his heart or his will for all beings, the will of God, got him enlightened IMO.


Whats so noble about it? Buddha said reincarnation belief is a noble one, not God


Belief in God is the same as belief in vampires, mermaids, titans, Zeus, unicorns or Batman

Highly speculative, no reason to assume they exist and even if they are invoked they dont actually explain anything


Every concept about God has fallen down, Zeus making lightening was proved otherwise, God making man out of dust was proved otherwise, God making the world was proved otherwise, God makes the weather (think this is in bible) proved otherwise and thats just a select few examples



Everything that was said to be explainable via God has been shown to be explained quite well without him via natural and rational causes, not magic (which belief in god is)



You believe in God (this is obvious) then please solve this
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

metta
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1691
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by acinteyyo » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:31 am

WHO??? is God (in Buddhism)?

what a wrong question! as if there would be someone WHO could be something...
to deny the existence of God (I'm talking about God's like the christian God) presupposes it's existence which then could be denied as well as to belief in the existence needs obviously presupposing. there aren't reasons for the existence neither against it. so there shouldn't be even a question.

best wishes
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

User avatar
dragonwarrior
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: somewhere

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by dragonwarrior » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:24 am

tiltbillings wrote:Basically, god is an unnecessary concept.
ya I agree with u

User avatar
dragonwarrior
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: somewhere

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by dragonwarrior » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:29 am

acinteyyo wrote:WHO??? is God (in Buddhism)?

what a wrong question!
Well I'm so sorry, don't really know how to ask what's in my mind in english. cheers

User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1691
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by acinteyyo » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:04 am

Winny wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:WHO??? is God (in Buddhism)?

what a wrong question!
Well I'm so sorry, don't really know how to ask what's in my mind in english. cheers
you don't have to be. asking questions is good. but to answer to a question properly the answer itself has to be asked correctly. it doesn't matter asking who or what or what ever is god. with "what a wrong question!" I meant that the question itself about god is wrong. as long as it's about any god like the chritian concept of god or something like that, I'm of the opinion that there shouldn't be even a question. as I said, such a question depends on presupposing, thus any answer which accepts the question (as right) must be wrong, because the question itself is wrong. you can't say this or that is god neither this or that isn't god.

best wishes
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:41 pm

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:25 pm

tiltbillings wrote: If the god is not a creator god, what good is it? As for a god of love, we really do not see much evidence of that. As Mark Twain supposedly said: If there is a God, he is a malign thug. Love is a human emotion.
True but in Mahayana with its karmic maximalism, since the universe is a torture chamber, I am a malign thug, since the universe is entirely the consequence of my choices. Not Abhidharma karma, but there it is.

User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:02 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:True but in Mahayana with its karmic maximalism, since the universe is a torture chamber, I am a malign thug, since the universe is entirely the consequence of my choices. Not Abhidharma karma, but there it is.
Thank goodness, I needed someone to blame.

:anjali:

ps. missed you Tashi, glad to see you :D

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20121
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:11 pm

Greetings,
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote: I am a malign thug, since the universe is entirely the consequence of my choices. Not Abhidharma karma, but there it is.
How do you know it's because of your choices and not because of Ngawang Drolma's choices? :tongue:

In fact... if it's entirely the consequences of your choices, then there's no kammic efficacy for the rest of us!

:woohoo:

:guns:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:21 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Why not a buddhist trying to change Gods message into Dhamma?
Cant really see why a Buddhist would want to
I share Craig's position here. I just don't see a point to it.

If God's your thing, that's cool with me. But the Buddha expounded the dharma just fine and there's no need to twist it into a pretzel so God can somehow fit in there. Anicca, Anatta, and Dukkha leave no room to sneak in an eternal God :smile:

Kindly,
Drolma

User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:25 pm

retrofuturist wrote:How do you know it's because of your choices and not because of Ngawang Drolma's choices? :tongue:
<insert maniacal laughter> :twisted:

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by PeterB » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:32 pm

Ngawang Drolma wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Why not a buddhist trying to change Gods message into Dhamma?
Cant really see why a Buddhist would want to
I share Craig's position here. I just don't see a point to it.

If God's your thing, that's cool with me. But the Buddha expounded the dharma just fine and there's no need to twist it into a pretzel so God can somehow fit in there. Anicca, Anatta, and Dukkha leave no room to sneak in an eternal God :smile:

Kindly,
Drolma
For some people it seems the need to see all paths as leading to the same goal sometimes overrides the actual facts, and perhaps in some cases overrides the desire to practice any one of them to its end.

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:41 pm

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:35 pm

Ngawang Drolma wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:True but in Mahayana with its karmic maximalism, since the universe is a torture chamber, I am a malign thug, since the universe is entirely the consequence of my choices. Not Abhidharma karma, but there it is.
Thank goodness, I needed someone to blame.

:anjali:

ps. missed you Tashi, glad to see you :D
Very nice to see you also Drolma, I apparently just needed a vacation from Buddha, now I'm back.

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:41 pm

Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:38 pm

retrofuturist wrote: How do you know it's because of your choices and not because of Ngawang Drolma's choices? :tongue:
I knew it. All my paranoia finally pays off - someone else really is out to get me.
retrofuturist wrote: In fact... if it's entirely the consequences of your choices, then there's no kammic efficacy for the rest of us!
My choices = my consequences, Drolma's choices = her consequences.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 73 guests