There is no fire like lust

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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manas
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Re: There is no fire like lust

Post by manas »

Buddhistboy wrote:Lust is a defilement of the mind which has a powerful magnetic potential to deviate one from the path. Most people including myself are affected by this. Im also trying to find a way out. So far this is most of what I know.

There are 2 types of meditations recommended by the Buddha to 'dissolve and neutralise' lust.

1) Meditation / Reflections on Repulsiveness (Patikulamanasikara) - This is the meditation where the mind focuses on the different parts / impurities within the body. Here is the Wikipedia article if you are interested in reading about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asubha and around the end of the webpage there are references which should contain more information.

2) Cemetery Contemplations (Marananussati) - also known as 'Recollection of Death'. This is the second type of meditation. Here is the link from Dhamma Wiki http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Marananussati

The two types of meditation are known as 'Meditation on the Foul' (Asubha Bhavana).

It is recommended that one practices Mindfulness meditation prior to engaging in the 2 practices mentioned above so that the reflections on the foul can be done with maximum possible mindfulness.

...

These are just a few techniques which I am planning to use. Some may need to use all the techniques while others may overcome lust with just one method.
Hi Buddhistboy,

there is yet another way to calm the fiery aspect of lust, and begin to bring it under control, but this way can only be practiced by a layman, and not by a monk. It is to have sex, but at the point of orgasm, not to ejaculate but rather, to draw that orgasmic energy (as it is just beginning to expand - one must not leave this too late or one will slip over the edge) - to draw that pleasure upwards into the body, up into the spine instead. Over time quite a few positive effects result, one of which is that the much more gentle experience of mild orgasm, over time, becomes preferable to the hundred-volt blast of orgasm when one used to habitually ejaculate. One comes to prefer to have a couple of really gentle 'upwards orgasms' to what one used to do. This can have the effect of lessening the grip lust for sex can have on the mind, because as you go into sex you know in advance that while intensely pleasurable, one has to keep one's wits about one, because sex no longer conflicts with your regular meditation practice, rather it has become a meditation practice. Because one circulated one's energy, one feels satisfied and not lusty anymore; and because one retained one's semen, one's mind is clear and sharp rather than in that awful post-ejaculatory stupor in which one finds the mind quite 'groggy' as the brain has just overdosed on neurochemicals in an excessive way (not to mention how much energy and nutrient goes into making semen btw) which is ok for a treat now and then, or if you want to conceive a child, but not recommended to do too often).

So I humbly recommend this practice to any layman who finds that *fighting* sex just creates tension in the mind which builds up and is eventually released in an uncontrolled way. Don't fight sex, transform it. And then go off and sit anapanasati, with a mind clear and undistracted by that raging fire, since it has already been assuaged and calmed. Ok not forever but temporarily, which until we are anagamis is as good as we can do, and certainly enough to benefit one's physical health and regular meditation practice (the breath or whatever else one does). I'm not saying this is for everyone, but some seem to find it immensely helpful.

Lastly I will add that there is a fair bit involved in learning this art, and one needs to learn it under proper guidance, even if that's just from books and videos, because while if done correctly it is beneficial, if done incorrectly it can lead to problems such as too much energy in the head, etc. (One needs to also learn how to bring the energy back down again, down the front of the body, right down into the navel chakra...but it's all good fun, and eventually much more simple than it might seem at first. :smile: )

kind regards
manas
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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waterchan
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Re: There is no fire like lust

Post by waterchan »

manas wrote: there is yet another way to calm the fiery aspect of lust, and begin to bring it under control, but this way can only be practiced by a layman, and not by a monk. It is to have sex, but at the point of orgasm, not to ejaculate but rather, to draw that orgasmic energy (as it is just beginning to expand - one must not leave this too late or one will slip over the edge) - to draw that pleasure upwards into the body, up into the spine instead. Over time quite a few positive effects result, one of which is that the much more gentle experience of mild orgasm, over time, becomes preferable to the hundred-volt blast of orgasm when one used to habitually ejaculate . . .
This particular cure for lust sounds awfully similar to tantric sex in Tibetan Buddhism.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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manas
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Re: There is no fire like lust

Post by manas »

waterchan wrote:
manas wrote: there is yet another way to calm the fiery aspect of lust, and begin to bring it under control, but this way can only be practiced by a layman, and not by a monk. It is to have sex, but at the point of orgasm, not to ejaculate but rather, to draw that orgasmic energy (as it is just beginning to expand - one must not leave this too late or one will slip over the edge) - to draw that pleasure upwards into the body, up into the spine instead. Over time quite a few positive effects result, one of which is that the much more gentle experience of mild orgasm, over time, becomes preferable to the hundred-volt blast of orgasm when one used to habitually ejaculate . . .
This particular cure for lust sounds awfully similar to tantric sex in Tibetan Buddhism.
Hi Waterchan,

that's interesting, I did not know there was a Buddhist equivalent. What I described above is all from Taoist practice, originally from China. By the way, the teacher whose books, videos etc I have learned from, presents it primarily as a means for better health physically and emotionally, and not as part of a 'religion'. He says you can be of any religion, or of none at all, to undertake this practice (and others like it that deal with circulating energy through the subtle channels of the body).

kind regards
manas
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
SarathW
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Re: There is no fire like lust

Post by SarathW »

“to draw that pleasure upwards into the body, up into the spine instead”
=======================
I have used this technique (similar) to control my pain in the body.

“to draw that pain upwards into the body, up into the whole body”

I found this help me to ease pain and help me to exercise equanimity towards pain instead of aversion.
This is also a good technique for people have problem with pain when they start meditation.

Perhaps this is what professional boxers do to control their pain.

Please note this is my personal opinion and experience.
:idea:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Dom
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Re: There is no fire like lust

Post by Dom »

Hello fearandloving, I had read your topic a while back because it was very relevant to me and my personal urges. Only now do I feel comfortable replying to you because of how I feel and what I've done. So you are aware, I plan on using straightforward wording and practices that have been for me crucial, but other people might find uncomfortable, so please be forewarned of how I'm going to post.

For information on me, today I'm celibate for 29 days including self pleasure (coming from masturbating 1x a day if not 1x every 2 days), I'm about 27 years old, male, do not have children, live on my own in a one bedroom apartment, 6 feet tall, 170 lbs at 10% bodyfat, very physically fit/healthy/attractive with healthy hormone function from weight training and yoga (meaning sexual relationships are available and celibacy is not forced).

Most importantly I know that no matter what I say I cant give you my experience of happiness I feel not craving lust; all I can do is show you that I am at a point in my life where most people can be very sexually active, and still my personal experience and my willingness to not take part in sexual/self stimulation is more valuable and pleasurable to me. If you do not believe me that is your choice, but I am willing to offer my help and my experience if you are sincere in wanting to free yourself from this.

I reflected on three subjects with different topics when working with lust, and all of these were crucial as supports while I got through the cravings. The subjects were: The physical realities of lust, the drawbacks of lust, and the benefits of not craving lust.

WARNING: Please be warned that the following is very graphic, but that the intensity of the image and mental fabrication is what helped me overcome my strong feelings of lust.

The Physical Realities of Lust
- I reflected on how many times I've been horny or aroused, and how the feeling vanishes without a trace once I orgasm, showing it's transitory nature.
-I reflected on how no matter how much sex I have it will never be enough to satisfy the desire permanently, it will only push it into the background for a few hours until it comes up again.
-I reflected on how the best sexual experiences I've ever had all came to an end, and typing at the computer now they don't improve my experience of right now even though they seemed of the utmost value at the time.
-When seeing a beautiful woman (same imaging can be used for a man), I asked myself "What would they look like if the skin on their face was cut off? Would my lust still be there?" I reflected on the muscles of the face and the bones showing, bloody and dripping during sexual intercourse.
-When desiring the touch of a beautiful woman, I imagined putting my ear next to her warm stomach in a silent room, hearing the acids of her stomach breaking down food, sending liquids through her body and waste material to fill her bladder, and sending unusable solid fecal material through it through long winding tubes to be excreted like a biological machine. I reflected on the discomfort and disgust coming from those functions and questioned my desires to insert my sexual organ into to a bag of skin (the torso and pubic region) that performs all these functions and features, and thrusting against it for gratification.
-When desiring sex, I imagine the beautiful woman growing old during the course of sex, her sexual organs drying and shriveling with age and chafing my skin until they turn blue and bruised from death and lack of blood, with time rotting and infested with worms and maggots burrowing into my sexual organ from inside the pubic region of this future corpse.
-I reflected on what parts of the beautiful woman were necessary for lust to be maintained. I imagined having sex and one of her fingers being removed and put next to me on the bed, then another, then a hand, then an arm. I imagined removing all these parts one by one at different times in different ways to see what was necessary for lust to exist. I imagined sex and removing an eye, or a woman with an eye infected with disease, or a woman with only half an eye left on one side. With all her teeth, with yellow teeth, with broken teeth. With healthy skin, with skin covered in blemishes, with skin covered in infections, with skin covered in lacerations, with skin peeled off in different places. I imagined having sex with a partner having a head crushed by a truck and asked if it was still an object of lust, a body burnt and charred, bloated and blue from drowning, and I imagined the different feelings my body would feel touching the bodies in different realistic circumstances, and how it would feel as I caressed it.

The Drawbacks of Lust
-I reflected on how much money I had spent to have sex only to want it again later.
-I reflected on how much of a persons personality I don't enjoy I endured so I could have sex with them, only to want it again later.
-I reflected on the amount of time and effort I put into having sex only to want it again later.
-I reflected on my attachments to my sexual fantasies, what I was willing to do to fulfill them, the feeling of the experience compared to my expectation of the experience once it happened, and how it still didn't satisfy me even after getting what I imagined were the greatest most valuable things available in life.
-I think about all the porn I watched, including violent and abusive porn, including violent cartoon drawings of sexual acts, fetishes, and the shame associated with being willing to watch those things and support those things once I orgasmed, and knowing even though I hated those feelings and they were shameful to me, my lust would still argue like a group of thieves, crooks and con men to convince me of how valuable and alright it was next time I was sexually aroused, only to disappear once I had orgasmed.
-Whenever a beautiful woman or women were attracted or showed interest, I reflected on what they desired. If they desired my body, I remembered my body would get old, sick and die, and how they wouldn't pay attention to me if that was the case. If they liked my personality or attitude, I remembered how its only attractive to them because it satisfies some desire they have for a person to act a certain way, and how if I was different they wouldn't pay attention to me. If they loved me, I reflected on how much their happiness depended on my actions because of their attachment to me, and considering how valuable I was to them, the things they would do to keep me in their lives (guilt trip me, make me feel responsible for their happiness, lie to me, hide things from me, ect), I also reflected on how difficult it would be to do something I wanted to do that they didn't want me to do and how they would try to stop me or restrict me by getting angry, getting upset, crying, guilt tripping, being passive aggressive, threatening, becoming violent, all the things people do to manipulate others, making acting on my personal happiness that much more difficult.
-I reflected on how painful it is to feel embarrassed and to feel like you must act cool or attractive in front of a beautiful woman or women, how much cologne I'd use from scent insecurity, how much memory I dedicated and attention to cool culture I recalled because of speech and action insecurity, how many clothes and accessories I'd purchased and worn because of looks insecurity, all the status symbols such as high paying job, expensive car, large home, upscale furniture and electronics because of self work insecurity, all the useless knowledge of current culture and gossip I maintained and kept up with to have a conversation with a woman, all the fights, chest thumping, physical comparing, mental comparing, material comparing with other men and all the anger, jealously, ill-will, pride, insecurity, desire to be more, desire for others to be less, depression and dissatisfaction that came from that: all of this effort and pain for the CHANCE to have sex, and even if I DID have sex, I'd want it again later and would still lack satisfaction. I also reflected on how woman and other men do this exact same thing and get the exact same result, and how their sexual desire for me is just to try and escape this dissatisfaction as I was using them to escape my own.

The Benefits of Not Craving Lust
-I don't worry about what others think of me except for professionalism and being able to maintain employment and lawful status in my community.
-I can talk to any person, no matter how beautiful or ugly, in any way I desire.
-My mind is clear of all useless information as there is no need to recall it for the entertainment of the opposite sex.
-Money is spent only on things I need and not wasted.
-My energy is spend only on the things important to me and not wasted on another to gain access to their body.
-I could live my entire life under surveillance 24 hours a day and not feel shameful or embarrassed.
-When I exercise, my exercise is focused on enjoyment and health rather than attachment to body image and painful training regiments.
-When I eat, I eat for health and satisfaction rather than trying to look a certain way.
-No one relies on me for their satisfaction, I can do whatever I please without being held back by the manipulations of a potential sexual partner; it's no longer like trying to move through tar toward my happiness when its something they don't want me to do.
-I remain unmoved when others threaten me by saying they won't have sex with me.
-I remain unbothered and out of the way of men who are craving a sexual partner, and am not subject to all the fighting, chest thumping, physical comparing, mental comparing, material comparing with other men and all the anger, jealously, ill-will, pride, insecurity, desire to be more, desire for others to be less, depression and dissatisfaction that comes from that. I am like a man who has stepped outside of a smoking house filled with people into the fresh air and sunlight of a vast green field.
-I can see a beautiful, curvaceous, attractive woman walking down the street in my view, appreciate the body in an artistic sense and return to what I was doing without having lust arise. There is no need to hide or turn from beautiful sights anymore, nor is there a need to chase them or try to prolong them.
-My mind is free of all the cravings for things that would only be necessary for impressing potential sexual partners; everything I own is basic, simple, reliable, and very easy to replace.
-My time and my energy are entirely my own, and dedicated to my own goals of a meaningful and true happiness.

As I said before, I cannot give you my experience of the happiness being free from lust; I can only describe my experience, my situation, and tell you I'm very happy with the decision - it's up to you to decide if you think what I'm saying seems valuable and useful for your personal situation. If you are sincerely looking for it's cessation, the above is the way it worked for me.

If freedom from lust is really what you want and you are willing to put in the effort, I wish you good luck. If you would like to ask any questions please feel free to do so and I reply in the way I feel will be helpful to you.
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