the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

[SarathW]

Of course.

[seeker242]

One of my favorite short suttas regarding the not-extinct vs extinct issue.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. SN 12.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta: To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

So it seems to me that if you still see some kind of existence or extinction, then you still don't have a right view since right view involves none of the above? Except of course "ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications...From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death", etc. etc.?

[tharpa]

One of my favorite short suttas regarding the not-extinct vs extinct issue.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. SN 12.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta: To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

So it seems to me that if you still see some kind of existence or extinction, then you still don't have a right view since right view involves none of the above? Except of course "ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications...From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death", etc. etc.?

Normally I wouldn't respond just to say "ditto", but you do have question marks, so yes, that seems to be what he is saying. It's interesting though, because here he seems to be calling the view "Everything doesn't exist" as an extreme, but isn't one of the higher jhanas something like "nothing exists"?

Edit: Sort of. ""Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. " - From the Anupada Sutta

[indian_buddhist]

Nibbana - from my understanding is the deathless stage.

It signifies the following:-

1. Complete destruction of Greed, Hatred and Delusion.
2. No more rebirths in any realm of existence.
3. It is a deathless stage.

My questions are :-
On attaining Nibbana:-
1. Where does one go?.
2. What are the qualities of attaining Nibbana. Is it pure happiness and bliss?.
3. Does one stay in Nibbana state permanently for infinite eons?.

[cooran]

Hello Indian_Buddhist, all,

This LONG thread may be of interest:

Is the result of Parinibbana annihilation?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039

With metta,
Chris

[Reductor]

Nibbana - from my understanding is the deathless stage.

It signifies the following:-

1. Complete destruction of Greed, Hatred and Delusion.
2. No more rebirths in any realm of existence.
3. It is a deathless stage.

My questions are :-
On attaining Nibbana:-
1. Where does one go?.
2. What are the qualities of attaining Nibbana. Is it pure happiness and bliss?.
3. Does one stay in Nibbana state permanently for infinite eons?.

1. Once you've attained nibbana, you no longer have a fixed conception of you and no longer place any importance on whether you continue or cease, or change or whatever. But, to the point, Nibbana is not a place and no one can 'go there'. You simply cease to cling to your own existence and no longer think of yourself as eternal and unchanging, and what it is more, you have no desire for an eternal, unchanging self.

2. Nibbana has no feeling. It is not something that exists, but is lack greed, hate and delusion and all the mental states, and mental turmoil, that arise because of them. But, when an arahant reflects on the cessation of greed, hate, delusion, and all the mental turmoil, they feel pleasure. But they don't try to keep that pleasure for ever, and don't morn when it fades away.

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.

[indian_buddhist]

Hello Indian_Buddhist, all,

This LONG thread may be of interest:

Is the result of Parinibbana annihilation?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039

With metta,
Chris

Hello Chris,

I completely know it is not Annihilation. Obviously it is not annihilation. How can it be Annihilation?.....Annihilation is end of everything - both Good qualities and Bad qualities.

But Nibbana is destruction of only the Bad qualities - Greed, Hatred and Delusion. Once that is achieved.....I am interested to know what happens after that?.

[indian_buddhist]

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.

Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Where does a flame go when it is extinguished?

Nibbāna is not a place, so no one "goes to nibbāna," and there are no Buddhas or Arahants "in nibbāna."

The self-view is an illusion. When that illusion has been understood, the two extreme wrong views of annihilationism and eternalism will also be destroyed.

[tiltbillings]

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.

Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.

It is wrongly put. Nibbana, by definition, is the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion. There is no "in nibbana" except in a figurative sense.

• S.N. IV 251 and IV 321: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana."

[indian_buddhist]

Again and Again the Buddha talks about Noble ones seek the Deathless - One which is not subject to Rebirth.

So Nibbana has to be Permanent right?.

I am not talking of Eternalism - Eternalism means those who speak of a permanent Soul who may goto heaven on doing good deeds but will fall back to Animal Realm or Hell later on.

[Reductor]

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.

Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.

THere is no permanent state of being. Greed, Hate and Delusion confound us into thinking that there is, or that there could be. But there isn't, and there can't be. Nibbana is when we realize that there is nothing within us or outside us that exists eternally - having realized this truth deeply and truly, we stop longing for such a thing, and stop getting upset when the good fades away, or when the bad takes its place. The human being, while alive, no longer suffers pains and arrows when his or her plans go wrong, or things are lost. The human being, on death, does not demand their own existence continue, nor do they demand that it end - they just know that there never was anything permanent here, and there never will be.

So, to repeat, Nibbana is the lack of Greed, HAte and Delusion. Once those things are gone from a human being, they do not return. For that human being, there is a lack of Greed, Hate and Delusion for the remainder of life. And when their life ends, there still isn't any Greed, Hate and Delusion for them. That's 'Eternal Nibbana', a term that confuses so many.

[indian_buddhist]

Ok so from your guys understanding an Ordinary Folk who has not achieved Arhant has no way of figuring out what Nibbana is?.

Meaning it is the UNDETERMINED.......Meaning one does not know if it is permanent or non-permanent.

Atleast can anyone tell me Nibbana means Happiness , Bliss or even that information is UNKNOWN.

If it is unknown then is it going after the Unknown is 8 Fold noble path followed?.

[pegembara]

A link to the great master Ajahn Chah's description of nibbana :

This is the nature of enlightenment; it’s the extinguishing of fire, the cooling of that which was hot. This is peace. This is the end of samsāra, the cycle of birth and death. When you arrive at enlightenment, this is how it is. It’s an ending of the ever-turning and ever-changing, an ending of greed, aversion and delusion in our minds. We talk about it in terms of happiness because this is how worldly people understand the ideal to be, but in reality it has gone beyond. It is beyond both happiness and suffering. It’s perfect peace.

http://www.theravada-dhamma.org/blog/?p=11041

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

My article on What is Nibbāna? may help you to understand.